Cracker: Cup of Tea and a new Electoral System
105 Responses
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At which point they were socially discredited?
Heh. While it's so long ago now that many of the names and details are no longer to hand, the hero of Knapp's undoing was a rather singular schoolteacher who sailed with his family on a yacht from the UK and settled in Whangarei. He smelt a rat with his school's business dealings with Knapp's company and kept digging. As I recall, he summed up Knapp's downfall with words to the effect of, if Knapp & Co. hadn't initially attempted to fob him off as a provincial idiot, things would probably have been fine.
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I hope that come the referendum, people will remember the British example. And not remember it in the muddled way Peter Shirtcliffe seems to be interpreting it
And they're still denying that Scotland and Wales have MMP. MMP with regional lists, yes, but MMP nonetheless:
"It is not known yet whether the proposed system would include top-up list MPs as in the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales but it is clear Britain doesn't want New Zealand-style MMP," [Hunt] said.
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it is clear Britain doesn't want New Zealand-style MMP," [Hunt] said.
I'm not sure how they can tell that without, well, asking.
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Major C. H. Douglas was convinced of an international jewish banking conspiracy (ahead of his time perhaps).
what
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And they're still denying that Scotland and Wales have MMP. MMP with regional lists, yes, but MMP nonetheless:
This is really getting odd. Graeme Hunt's not a stupid man -- I can't fathom why he'd continue to say something so demonstrably untrue, even to further his cause.
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I've long thought that the best thing that the change to MMP gave us was unintended, it sort of gave the public a chance to shake up the snowglobe a bit - it gave a bunch of fl.../people (Roger Douglas is a great example, another is Jim Anderton) whose politics and their party's had drifted apart permission, and the ability, to jump ship and follow their muses .... I think we need to find a way to make it happen every generation or so
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--Major C. H. Douglas was convinced of an international jewish banking conspiracy (ahead of his time perhaps).__
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I trust Andre didn't mean that the way it reads. Perhaps he can clarify.
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I was intrigued by Cameron's comment on the news tonight (the Joint News Conference)
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"This is a new era in British government which will look out for the interests of the country, not the party." </loose recreation of quote I can't find..>
but... but... oh! -
I trust Andre didn't mean that the way it reads. Perhaps he can clarify.
Presumably a wry reference to Douglas' Social Credit appearing in 1924 (as per the Wiki link), which was some time before Hitler and the Nazis? My best guess.
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I assume so, although it should be noted that even that doesn't predate the international Jewish banking conspiracy.
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Where's HORansome when we need some scholarly insight?
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I assume so, although it should be noted that even that doesn't predate the international Jewish banking conspiracy.
The international Jewish banking conspiracy theory pretty much predates *banking*, at least if you consider it linked to the pre-Crusade pogroms/shake-downs of the late eleventh century, which were premised along much the same lines.
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This is really getting odd. Graeme Hunt's not a stupid man -- I can't fathom why he'd continue to say something so demonstrably untrue
There is that small tenent of right wing faith in this country, the "moral obligation to lie" if it serves the higher purpose.
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There is that small tenent of right wing faith in this country . . .
Like, most rightwingers happily believe that there's really a little person inside every iPod?
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and founder Major C. H. Douglas was convinced of an international jewish banking conspiracy (ahead of his time perhaps).
I don't think that nasty permutation of Jew-hatred was ahead of anyone's time during Douglas' life.
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I do however actually feel grateful that first past the post kept those loons away from the levers of power.
My UK native flatmate is highly skeptical of proportional representation apparently because she's afraid of the influence fringe (but increasingly well organised) parties like the BNP will have on policy if given fair representation.
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That's interesting Zach. We're lucky in the sense that our racist fringe only extends as far as New Zealand First and, some might say, the Maori Party (or elements therein).
If you look at the makeup in England however, it's hard to see anyone other than the Lib Dems holding the balance of power for the timebeing, which could give them disproportionate power. Here with our 'winning' major party traditionally getting pretty close to 50%, it only needs a much more fringe party to push them into power.
I'd make a couple of points about the BNP. If they represent the views of enough people, then we have to give them a voice in Parliament. That's fundamental. But if Labour and the Conservatives have even the slightest bit of moral fibre, they should both refuse in advance to even consider dealing with them.
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Hmmm. Thinking out loud, perhaps if the BNP actually had a shot at a very small number of seats under an alternative system, they might attract a number of the flakier elements (some of the Earl Grey Teabaggers, for example) away from the Conservative party, in much the same way as UKIP has attracted a number of the flakier Eurosceptics.
This might allow the more centrist factions the opportunity to clean house and get their party firmly back on some sort of sane course.
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We're lucky in the sense that our racist fringe only extends as far as New Zealand First and, some might say, the Maori Party (or elements therein).
Given recent events, you might have to extend that to elements in National - sentiment reflected by whatever internal spin-doctor approved that deliberately-crafted utterance, to say nothing of the cheeky whitey who delivered it.
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Oh, and of course the fearful ninnies who canned the inclusion of Te Urewera in the settlement with Tuhoe.
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Zach's flatmate need not worry about proportional representation as at present it looks like the referendum will be about whether to change the system to alternative voting (or preferential voting as it's called in the rest of the world). The odds of the BNP winning a seat are probably lower under PV than FPP.
The dilemma now is, if what you want is proportional representation (by whatever scheme), how do you vote in a referendum between AV and FPP?
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The dilemma now is, if what you want is proportional representation (by whatever scheme), how do you vote in a referendum between AV and FPP?
We seem to have two threads on this discussion.
Just linked to this on the Chip and Dip thread.
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Since it is probably going to be used as an argument by those promoting abandoning MMP in the course of the campaign, I note Bad Sciences posting on government debt and countries with strong political parties.
blog link
Which basically shows that strong one party government does not lead to fiscal responsibility. -
Which basically shows that strong one party government does not lead to fiscal responsibility.
I'd like to see Singapore on that graph.
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The dilemma now is, if what you want is proportional representation (by whatever scheme), how do you vote in a referendum between AV and FPP?
You vote for AV. And then push for a change to multi-member electorates in the future, when it won't seem like such a big deal, 'cos people are used to voting with numbers instead of ticks.
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