Cracker: Cup of Tea and a new Electoral System
105 Responses
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I agree with Graeme.
AV is flawed in my opinion and perhaps those flaws are equally as bad as FPTP however I've only done the most superficial of reading to justify my opinion and that is because I voted on the basis of electoral reform. I will need to do a lot more before I am certain on that matter. Most people in the UK/England have not thought about the issue deeply as despite what the media or commentators say, electoral reform was not an issue this election was fought on. Even the Liberal Democrats barely discussed the issue outside of their Manisfesto, instead, they ocassionally mentioned "political reform" in the debates or interviews and instead focused on other issues, like tax or Trident or not being one of the big two parties. So there is a profound ignorance on the topic of electoral reform at this point in time.
The referendum or parliamentary debate will change all of this. We will have several months of in depth discussion at the national (UK) level that the voters and other groups will not be able to ignore and even if AV loses, which is quite likely this discussion and debate phase cannot be undone.
We will finally have a wider UK voting population that has been exposed to discussion of electoral reform - and I am certain the debate will be wide enough to include the merits of PR and its many variants. Hopefully we will achieve a high degree of electoral system literacy as well and so no more will this kind of thing be brushed off as Liberal Democrat lunancy or something similar.
So if we do lose on AV then at least we have some hope that the electorate will in the future demand that the issue be revisited, because they understand the debate
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I'd make a couple of points about the BNP. If they represent the views of enough people, then we have to give them a voice in Parliament. That's fundamental. But if Labour and the Conservatives have even the slightest bit of moral fibre, they should both refuse in advance to even consider dealing with them.
That's my take on it too. The idealist in me thinks better to be representative and let things shake out as they will than the warped and stagnant setup we have now.
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But if Labour and the Conservatives have even the slightest bit of moral fibre, they should both refuse in advance to even consider dealing with them.
Just as both National and Labour learned -- eventually -- from their bitter marriages of inconvenience with Winston Peters, that there are some dogs you don't lie down with without getting up with something worse than fleas?
Given recent events, you might have to extend that to elements in National - sentiment reflected by whatever internal spin-doctor approved that deliberately-crafted utterance, to say nothing of the cheeky whitey who delivered it.
You might also want to extend that to elements in Labour -- some of which are disturbingly close to Phil Goff, and ghost Chris Trotter's glue-huffing exercises in negrophobic fantasy fiction.
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Since it is probably going to be used as an argument by those promoting abandoning MMP in the course of the campaign, I note Bad Sciences posting on government debt and countries with strong political parties.
Fascinating. It's worth noting that NZ's place along the y axis is something of an aberration too. For most of the past decade, the largest party's share has been nearer 40% than 50.
But also: could Fran O'Sullivan look at that graph before she compares NZ to Greece again? The two countries' relative government debt positions hardy bear comparison.
Also: reading the Herald this morning, I couldn't help but wonder why I'm getting a tax cut when my government is presently obliged to run a fiscal deficit.
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Ahh, second coffee after 2.5 hours on football sidelines and mowing the lawn. Pause for applause... Oh, sorry this isn't Twitter.
I couldn't help but wonder why I'm getting a tax cut when my government is presently obliged to run a fiscal deficit.
Would you stop being so bloody logical! Somebody might hear you.
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I couldn't help but wonder why I'm getting a tax cut when my government is presently obliged to run a fiscal deficit.
Don't be silly Russell, you know that we are not borrowing for tax cuts, we're borrowing for other stuff, John said so.
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That's what we did too. We paid cash for our house, and at the same time borrowed 300 grand from the bank to cover our living expenses over the following several years.
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You might also want to extend that to elements in Labour -- some of which are disturbingly close to Phil Goff, and ghost Chris Trotter's glue-huffing exercises in negrophobic fantasy fiction.
Craig, I agreed with you yesterday in no uncertain terms that Trotter's foaming rant is deplorable.
Difference is, he is (thankfully) not a party leader let alone the prime minister. And unless you can name some names and show some evidence I doubt his words would have had the involvement of any state-funded Labour PR lackeys either.
Fran O'Sullivan attempts today to portray it as a "clumsy" off-the-cuff throwaway. Nice try. Key must be good at some things but extemporaneous speaking is not one of them, and you only have to hear or see him deliver those words to know they were written down beforehand.
It takes little further thinking to connect their casual racism with the speaker, government and party that is behind them. Show some equivalent connections around Trotter's garbage and you can keep your protestations of equivalence - though I don't deny for a second that racism is spread around more broadly.
O'Sullivan mentions aspects in the draft settlement agreement which could have so spooked both Trotter and our currency trader in chief.
The proposed Tuhoe settlement is arguably the first steps towards self-governance by a tribe which insists it never gave up its sovereignty in the first place.
A one-page summary of the deal to Maori TV a fortnight ago indicated the settlement would also ensure particular Government services would be devolved over time. It wanted other tribes to apologise for assisting Government troops to drive them off their lands.
Negotiator Tamati Kruger indicated the tribe would be able to "tax" its people and other sources suggest it wants to represent itself separately on the international stage.
In substance this is probably not too far a stretch from the Scottish home rule movement.
In reality it may not turn out to be such a frightening prospect for New Zealand to accommodate. But the hurdle that must first be passed is the necessity to build trust among other New Zealanders that Tuhoe will honour a settlement and not freeze others from access to the park or force them to pay a small fortune to enjoy its treasures.
I'm curious what Tuhoe's motivation would have been to leak the proposed settlement as O'Sullivan claims (while she chides them that they should be grateful for such benign and enlightened colonists).
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Smaller parties holding "the balance of power" is one of those phrases that really gets up my nose.
Smaller parties have no power unless the larger parties give it to them. National can quite comfortably run a minority government with assistance from a range of smaller parties. They could negotiate with the Greens for support on a particular policy, or the Maori Party or ACT, or even Labour.
If National chooses to get its support from ACT rather than another party then that is because ACT is more in line with National's direction.
If Britain has a proportional system and the BNP was represented in Parliament racist policies pushed by the BNP could only get traction if the larger parties supported them.
And while I'm on a roll. NZ First got 4.07% of the party vote in 2008. Don't write Winston Peters off, he has a lot of personal support and would probably have snuck in if he hadn't misread voters impatience with his financial issues. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him back in the running in 2011. The angry middle vote, grumpy with National, not quite ready to go back to Labour and Maori fed up with the Maori Party.
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you only have to hear or see him deliver those words to know they were written down beforehand.
I thought I was alone in thinking that. Does anybody else have that uncomfortable feeling that we are being led by a sock puppet?. Who is, actually, writing those words?.
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To me, the sovereign integrity of New Zealand is something worth a civil insurrection to protect.
Key is right to suspect that any hint of ceding the sovereign territory of New Zealand to any other state - new or existing - would trigger a Pakeha backlash that would put democracy itself in doubt, let alone high felutin' arguments around the electoral system.
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Difference is, he is (thankfully) not a party leader let alone the prime minister. And unless you can name some names and show some evidence I doubt his words would have had the involvement of any state-funded Labour PR lackeys either.
John Pagani is Phil Goff's media and strategic advisor, had his fingers all over Goff's disgraceful Palmerston North speech and hearts Trotter big time (h/t Russell) I don't know about you, but if I was only of those ghastly effete "liberals" who've wrecked the Labour Party and emasculated 'Waitakere Man', I'd be a little nervous about him having that much access to and influence over Goff -- who I believe intends to seriously contest the election next year.
ETA: Oh, fuck it -- snippy passage removed. Its the weekend. Sacha and I can 'nad-gouge each other during normal business hours.
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Tom, I don't doubt the size of the issue, but where does making a knowing "joke" fit in? Market research, testing the waters?
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Thank you, Craig.
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Key is right to suspect that any hint of ceding the sovereign territory of New Zealand to any other state - new or existing - would trigger a Pakeha backlash
There are so many problems here.
1. Would allowing Chinese interests to purchase vast tracts of land from the Cryafar estate constitute ceding sovereign territory, if not then why not?
2. Bearing in mind the historical significance of the Tuhoe claim and the poor state of the Te Urewera National Park I think it a little incongruous that National should deny Tuhoe what is rightfully theirs whilst advocating Mining in far less neglected areas of natural beauty. -
1. Would allowing Chinese interests to purchase vast tracts of land from the Cryafar estate constitute ceding sovereign territory, if not then why not?
And I want to be very careful about playing the racist card, but am I the only person who think there's more than a little high-pitched 'Yellow Peril' dog-whistling in the media over this? Are we ever going to get past quote unquote "Asian"-bashing being the respectable face of bigotry?
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And I want to be very careful about playing the racist card,
I was playing the "Sovereignty" card, the point being that owning the land does not imply sovereignty so why the cry over Tuhoe. I know Tino Rangatira is on the wish list but the thought of a separatist state is a bit far out for the majority of the country I suspect, which poses a bit of a dilemma.
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And I want to be very careful about playing the racist card, but am I the only person who think there's more than a little high-pitched 'Yellow Peril' dog-whistling in the media over this?
No, you are not alone Craig :)
I listened to Mae Wang t'other night and frankly, I like the woman. As astute a business representative as any I have seen lately. I vaguely recall it was Fonterra who started the gossip spinning via the media. Of course their private interests may be at risk of loosing their monopoly in the cow market, but fair is fear in the scheme of things eh? I thought we are supposed to be on the "Free Market" gravy train.If she will save the Crafar's the crash they desperately want to avoid, who are we to stop them? Unless of course the govt wants their land ;) Tuhoe know how that feels. -
Fran O'Sullivan's comments about "...Ngai Tahu wanting the same thing...") (apropos national parks) is way off the mark: while there was government duplicity over what & how much the tribe had sold or otherwise conveyed to Crown, the 1998 Ngai Tahu act was a settlement. E.g - we reclaimed Aoraki, made sure his original name was reinstated formally - and then returned him to national ownership.
I obviously cant say anything about what Tainui may or may not want - but neither can O'Sullivan.
Going by the vote figures on the Herald's "Should Te Urewera be returned to Tuhoe?" (24% Yes, 76% No, when I last looked) O'Sullivan's speculations find some support. Yvonne Tahana's article in today's Herald may just open eyes as to how duplicitous the government was, over many years-
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I was playing the "Sovereignty" card,
Indeed - and I think you know me well enough to believe that if I thought you were a bigot I'd say so straight out. My point is that I think there are are way too many people out there for whom "sovereignty" is a polite euphemism for something much less savoury. And all too often, they weren't that upset about foreign ownership when half of Queen Street was owned by British insurance companies.
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Yvonne Tahana's article in today's Herald
Ae, recommended reading and concise. The Urewera situation is quite specific, and suggesting other iwi will re-litigate settlements and demand chunks of national park here or there is just dog-whistling. What a surprise that Your Views and talkback are full of barking and whining.
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Going by the vote figures on the Herald's "Should Te Urewera be returned to Tuhoe?" (24% Yes, 76% No, when I last looked)
I voted for that and it hasn't changed all day.
What a surprise that Your Views and talkback are full of barking and whining.
Bunch of wankers like comments on Tariana's piece.
Then this wanker
True Colours I swear. -
o ick-ickky -ick.
There were some passionate commentators in that thread Sofie, who were Tuhoe, and they were moderate...and then there were some others.
Major other =Bill English.Rushing off to have a long hot shower to get rid of any possible contact with this creature who tried to rort the system, and only gave up when the system got 'm-
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There were some passionate commentators in that thread Sofie, who were Tuhoe, and they were moderate..
Yes indeed the moderates were Tuhoe! Nuff respect. The rest were paranoid, or ignorant or ill informed and stupid enough to believe the hype. That is what is embarrassing as non maori, and man am I a passionate New Zealander, Mexican, with US and kiwi citizenship.
I'm not the brightest wee thing on the planet but I can figure some of this shit out and the rest of anyone out there can join the chorus :) These Nats rely so much on opinion polls. I will be adding my opinion to all of them. -
Tariana's piece
Another important read, a considered explanation of the deep link between Tuhoe and Te Urewera - and the comments were way better than I expected.
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