Hard News: Democracy Night
773 Responses
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Sacha, in reply to
Auckland Central MP Nikki Kaye still pushing her Ponsonby tram notion with Council.
Ms Kaye said her priorities were marine protection of the Hauraki Gulf, public transport, increasing housing, and lobbying for research and innovation centres.
"The central city master plan is something I'm very keen to work on with Auckland Council in the short-term ... to make sure it adequately accommodates walking and cycling, and look into the feasibility of a tram loop," she said.
Here's what Joshua Arbury made earlier of Ms Kaye's suggestion.
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Stephen Hill, in reply to
I had a mess around with the MMP seat allocation calculator at Elections NZ yesterday - in the (admittedly unlikely) event that NZ first lifted to 7% (+0.2) and the Greens to 11.2% (+0.6) and all of that 0.8% came off National (47.19) then Nat/Act/UF would have 60 seats.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
The less you have (business, home, family, roots and networks) the easier it is to leave. I seriously question myself at least once a month whether it’s worth staying
Aw, hugs Hebe – and I’d be exactly the same in your position. I’m sure Burns and Wagner are hoping the specials definitively break their way, and only saying that to my ear ( IMO, YMMV and there’s nothing wrong with that, of course ) it would have been more edifying if he’d not gone so heavy in the media on the “my voters left town” angle.
And on Twitter, someone DM’d me this quote from Wagner: “We’ve gone from this red town and moving to be a stronger and safer blue city.” Baby Jesus on a stick, there’s plenty of euphoria to go round but let’s show more class than ass. I’m not Lianne’s biggest fan, but that’s damn insulting to someone I keep hearing (even from Cantabs who are Tory blue down to their DNA) was a great local MP and advocate.
I know this sounds like petty tone-trolling, but thinking twice about what you say, and how you say it, does matter. And I'd like to think nobody, nowhere appreciates politicians trying to use catastrophes like the ChCh quakes as political poo points.
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BenWilson, in reply to
It is also what happened in Waitakere this time and almost worked in removing Paula Bennett, if it had worked would that have been a perversion?.
You probably need to go into some more detail to show me how this is even vaguely similar. Labour stood a strong candidate who almost won on the night, and the special votes do actually need to be counted before there is any certainty in Bennett's hold. Are you referring to the fact that my Westie cousins told Chris Trotter to go fuck himself, delivering a Green/Labour party vote majority, with a great many splitting Labour/Green as 90% of the commentators on this thread said they were doing?
That kind of vote splitting is the exact opposite of what I was suggesting. Unless you are suggesting that Green/Labour are like National/ACT, with Green being the "big" party, and Labour being the one being gifted the seat by its donor. You must see that can't work, because Labour, being the big party, simply loses list seats for every electorate seat it gains.
So, no, it's not the same kind of perversion at all.
I have realized my post may have been confusing, because I differentiated the two Labours in the thought experiment using the number zero in place of the letter "o". It looked fine in the posting field, and preview, but seems that the fonts used on the posted comments are nearly identical. I should have perhaps said that I'm suggesting Labour makes a Laybour party that stands in seats but doesn't aim for party vote at all (although it wouldn't really matter if they did get party vote, because they would get seats, so the threshold would not exert its vicious influence). Then Labour voters would be told to vote Labour/Laybor for Party/Electorate. That would have the effect that is being used in Epsom, at least this time around. ACT no longer stands for anything Roger Douglas invented it for, nothing could be more evident about that than John Banks refusing outright to even hear that his own party leader supported a decriminalization debate for dope, because he, being not the least bit canny, actually took the whole "ACT is for liberals" at face value. Instead, ACT is now entirely about a racist, homophobic law-and-order nut, an ex Nat high-ranker who never defected, but was instead openly and obviously supported by National in his bid to be gifted Epsom, and secretly supported, as the teapot tapes will eventually show, in his bid to oust the "principled" ACT leader.
I'm pretty damned sad that Epsomites think that's choice. I've always known that the East side of Auckland is pretty damned racist, because I went to school there and had to put up with many jibes from the kids about all the "boongers" who apparently infested the suburb that I commuted from. But I had not thought homophobia to be something they would stomach quite so easily. I guess I should have known, of course, the school I went to was in Kohi, which returned that staunch homophobe Muldoon right up until he died.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
I’m sure Burns and Wagner are hoping the specials definitively break their way, and only saying that to my ear ( IMO, YMMV and there’s nothing wrong with that, of course ) it would have been more edifying if he’d not gone so heavy in the media on the “my voters left town” angle.
Except the observation Burns made is perfectly correct. And I've got no problem with it. I'd be very surprised if the specials don't break Burns's way, for exactly the reason he's given. The biggest factor against him may be simply the weariness that Hebe was talking about, making the effort of casting a special vote just seem like too much. Especially in an electorate that nobody was talking about as a marginal before the election.
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Clint Fern, in reply to
then Nat/Act/UF would have 60 seats.
Which to my mind would still make them the Govt, just one that may not be able to pass asset sales. There really isn't a credible alternative at the moment unfortunately. A weak Labour Party would not be able to govern as it'd have to get the agreement of the Greens, Mana, the Maori Party (up until this point plausible) and then the Winston Party (and it all falls apart) on any piece of legislation they wanted to pass.
The best I'm hoping for is for the specials to deliver a result that will put a brake on the asset sales, but Key will be PM for the next 3 years.
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Hebe, in reply to
quote from Wagner: “We’ve gone from this red town and moving to be a stronger and safer blue city.”
I noted that, and many others will have too. Untrue and uncool but a sign that the National are well into the second-term arrogance phase of government.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
And our system lacks most of the checks and balances that other nations have, like an upper house. Weak opposition and media means little effective constraint on the executive.
As I've previously mentioned, MMP is the closest we have to an upper house. The alternative is Muldoonism or Sir Joh.
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Joe Wylie, in reply to
. . . an electorate that nobody was talking about as a marginal before the election.
Burns's 2008 majority was 935 votes, down from Tim Barnett's 2005 figure of 7,836.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
then Nat/Act/UF would have 60 seats.
And that leaves Lab/Greens/NZF/Maori/Mana with 59 or 60? Quite an unholy alliance...
The underlying and unaddressed assumption in some of the print coverage has been that the Maori party will happily line up with National. I'm not saying that won't happen, but it might not be the rock-solid lock that some are assuming.
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Sacha, in reply to
Except the observation Burns made is perfectly correct.
you're ruining the narrative :)
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Joe Wylie, in reply to
As I've previously mentioned, MMP is the closest we have to an upper house. The alternative is Muldoonism or Sir Joh.
When Bolger expressed his preference for an upper house back when MMP was first mooted, someone commented that he already had one in the form of the Business Roundtable.
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Sacha, in reply to
As I've previously mentioned, MMP is the closest we have to an upper house.
Agreed. I forgot who had said that recently.
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Hebe, in reply to
I'm lucky that the dust has always been a long block away in both directions, but you still have to drive through the remains of it (windows up aircon off) and the constant roadworks. But we're a lot better off than many, and on the up side we found out last week the house foundations will be repaired in situ rather than moving it down the end of the yard and plonking it back again as we were first told. I'm so happy, the garden is saved (90 percent of it would have been flattened otherwise)!
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
National got 48% of the votes cast, but it only got got a third of the votes of those eligible to vote. This isn’t to minimise Labour’s defeat, but rather to highlight the collapse in democratic participation that has been going on for a while now and is accelerating under Key’s watch.
Too true. Also, there’s not much to get the youth vote excited at the moment, which is believed to be the biggest non-voting bloc. No Vietnam or Iraq War, no conscription, no abortion debate, no Spiro Agnew or Rob Muldoon figure to hate upon.
Graduating from university only to end up on the dole queue is the closest hot-button issue for youth right now, but it seems to be perceived among them that none of the major parties have made them tick.
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The dye is karst...
Red Flight may not necessarily mean staunch labour voters
Just folks who've been forced from the Red Zones
many of whom now have reason to dislike National...We await the falling chips...
Though I fervently hope our battered city
does not have to bear that new Blue Bruise
in its centre for the next term...Bad enough the tragic haemorrhagic fever
that has engulfed Waimakariri and
wheezes on in Ilam...one hopes it won't kill the host...
National's 48% of three quarters of the voting population
does not (in my opinion) grant Key an overwhelming
mandate to asset strip the nation... -
BenWilson, in reply to
I'm mildly troubled by the papers unequivocally calling it for Key two days in a row (HoS, SST, today's Herald) - it seems like once the specials are in, there's some room for an upset in the negotiations. Or have I missed something.
Me too, I thought it was actually for the politicians themselves to call it. Goff never conceded on the night. Nor should he, he does not speak for the Maori Party, who hold the balance of power and find themselves in an extremely awkward place.
They may well face electoral oblivion this time, if they continue to support National - if there was a clear message delivered in the Maori electorates it was a massive swing away from the Maori party. Sharples own electorate was actually close, and they don't get enough party vote to slip through their elders if they lose.
The Herald openly calling the election for Key is quite bizarre. For 4 weeks, I thought they had finally actually decided to opt for a bit of balance, as they finally gave Goff some air time, and discussed the actual merits of some policy proposals. But I realize now that was only to sell more papers by sparking a bit of controversy around the election they really feel was/is in the bag. They're back to their craven editorials singing the praises of the leadership, desperately hoping that their jobs won't be torn away by their corporate masters. Which they will - their entire business is one of the greatest victims of modern capitalism. Their opinion staff movements are like a last-one-standing zombie movie, where only most violent and desperate and lucky make it to the end of the movie, and every casualty rises from the dead to suck the life out of them by joining the internet news revolution.
Ironically, the Herald has opted to give me their paper for free for a month. First deliver, this morning. I'm happy for their gift of free mulch for my garden, most eco-friendly of them.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
playing the Blues...
...a sign that the National are well into the second-term
arrogance phase of government.That difficult second-album syndrome
can sometimes tear bands apart...
best we can hope for is 'artistic differences',
'substance abuse', 'pilot error' or a sudden
predilection for 'polkas and schottisches'... -
Kumara Republic, in reply to
Which they will – their entire business is one of the greatest victims of modern capitalism. Their opinion staff movements are like a last-one-standing zombie movie, where only most violent and desperate and lucky make it to the end of the movie, and every casualty rises from the dead to suck the life out of them by joining the internet news revolution.
In the meantime, browse the Granny online while running NoScript.
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When Bolger expressed his preference for an upper house back when MMP was first mooted, someone commented that he already had one in the form of the Business Roundtable.
We always had lower house of the the Business Roundtable and the CTU.
MMP gave us an upper house which gets to ratify or block their legislation.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
Hark! the Herald angles…
I’m happy for their gift of free mulch for my
garden, most eco-friendly of them.Excellent as fly and mosquito swatters as well
can also be folded into sun hats…
(some rolling and assembly required)When damp can be useful for germinating seeds,
or drily slid under carpet for the insulation properties…Pet Silverfish can be kept alive for yonks also!
Try doing any of the above with an iPad app :- )
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One thing I felt late in the campaign was that both National and Labour felt very negative.
Early in the campaign Labour put up some positive policies "we stand for this" and We will do this". But late in the campaign it felt very much to about "if you don't vote for use xxx bad thing will happen"
National felt very similar "if you don't vote for us the economy will collapse"
By contrast the Greens felt very positive right up until the end.
And I use the word "felt" very consciously. When you examined actual policy all the parties had strong things they stood for - yet somehow the feeling I got was of what they stood against.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
The biggest factor against him may be simply the weariness that Hebe was talking about, making the effort of casting a special vote just seem like too much. Especially in an electorate that nobody was talking about as a marginal before the election.
You may well be right, but I find it odd that nobody was talking about Christchurch Central as a marginal when between 2002 and 2008 Wagner reduced Labour's majority from almost ten and a half thousand to 935. (To be fair, any political journo could fairly retort: "20/20 hindsight, ain't it grand? ChCh Central is still an electorate Labour has held since it was created in 1946, and Tim Barnett's majority in 1996 was 653.")
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Haven't listended to it yet myself, but Radio NZ had a story this morning about the role of Maori in asset sales, featuring Ngai Tahu chair and Iwi Leaders Forum rep Mark Solomon (21 mins, listening options).
The National Party's second-term agenda includes controversial plans to sell minority stakes in the state-owned power companies, and Solid Energy, as well as a selldown in Air New Zealand shares. The Maori Party went into the campaign opposing asset sales but iwi groups like Tainui and Ngai Tahu, are in favour.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
but I find it odd that nobody was talking about Christchurch Central as a marginal when between 2002 and 2008 Wagner reduced Labour's majority from almost ten and a half thousand to 935.
Burns's 2008 majority was 935 votes, down from Tim Barnett's 2005 figure of 7,836.
Yes, it is odd. But. It's also slightly disingenuous to compare figures in Chch Central without noting the boundary redraw. Which co-incided with the stepping down of a long-term MP with a great deal of personal support. So no, I'm not buying "Wagner reduced".
(I should note I'm actually in Port Hills, not Central, but very much on the margin. Our booth took as many Central votes as it did PH.)
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