Hard News: Don't Panic
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The Brits are incredibly stoic about bombs at home. I suppose the 20th century bucked them up. An London friend was here for the Lions tour two years ago when the bus bombs went off and we all flocked around him most concerned that he call and check on friends and family at home: he was remarkably relaxed, said "London's a big place", and went to bed.
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The Brits are incredibly stoic about bombs at home. I suppose the 20th century bucked them up. An London friend was here for the Lions tour two years ago when the bus bombs went off and we all flocked around him most concerned that he call and check on friends and family at home: he was remarkably relaxed, said "London's a big place", and went to bed.
In the five years I spent there, there were not only IRA bombing campaigns, but grievous loss of life through basic infrastructure failure. The King's Cross station fire was a particularl;y distressing example. So I guess you develop the idea that life is dangerous anyway.
One notable spell of that period was the summer following the Lockerbie bombing. Americans stayed away in their droves, refusing to cross the Atlantic for fear of being killed in the air. The attitude from the Brits was somewhat disdainful.
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Good article in the Register about this.
Your chances of being killed by a bomb, or any other sort of public disaster, are minimal, so it's irrational to worry about them.
As pointed out in the article, the IRA were actually competent terrorists - but Britain never bombed Baghdad or locked people up for thoughtcrime. These "bombs" are just mad people trying to murder - they have more in common with Aramoana than real terrorism.
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The war on terror has got so boring I don't even care to know what happened in this particular twist. So the Americans and the English and the Australians want to have their own never-ending wasteful stupid war. Let them. The best response seems to be to ignore it completely.
Eventually enough people will die and enough money will be wasted that even the stupidest will get sick of it and call it quits. I'm beginning to think that making a circus out of Iraq is the main reason the Americans wanted it so much. A lot like the child who misbehaves for attention. The war on terror needs a time-out badly, since smacking has never worked. Maybe some positive attention, if only something good any of those countries are doing could be found.
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As a side note, anyone who subscribes to the NZ Police comms centre emails will know that we had our very own suspected car bomb in New Zealand last night.
Turns out it was just some hippy with a water-to-hydrogen converter in their boot!
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The apparently resolute British desire not to panic after the weekend's close shaves with murder and mayhem is to be admired.
Couldn't agree more, but I wish the reaction to Salman Rushdie's knighthood didn't prove quite so vividly that there are still English folks, right across the political spectrum, who don't really respect freedom of expression.
I've not changed my opinion since 1989 that Rushdie is a genuinely talented, but vastly over-rated, writer' but nor have I changed my view that it is totally unacceptable in any civilized country to burn books, or call for the murder of a citizen of that country because he wrote a book that offends your religious or political sensibilities.
Sadly the usual suspects on the loony left and the rabid right haven't changed their minds over the last 18 years either. I just hope Gordon Brown will prove to be a damn sight less mealy-mouthed than Thatcher and Blair.
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I wonder if the American fear of/disdain for "the public" is at work here? A single bomb in a single public place (say, a train station, or airport) in the US would cause a mass abandonment of plans, and avoidance of that type of place. Even if it wasn't very successful. Ditto a bomb on a form of public transport (which planes are, in a slightly glorified sense). The Brits, whatever the flaws in their national character, don't have the same phobia perhaps.
Anyway, that hypothesizing aside, if the Americans are at one end of the spectrum in terms of reactions to would-be terrorist events, and the Brits are at the other, where would Kiwis likely fit?
And Australians? Canadians?
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I'm not a committed conspiracy theorist but....
I always feel the skeptic in me re-awakened at times like these. Whose interests are being served by the ongoing threat of "terrorTM"?
Are there others out there who wouldn't put it past certain organisations to 'sponsor' acts like these in order to justify their ongoing operations and keep the 'war' at the top of the agenda.
Y'know, a bit like creating the news then reporting it.
The amount of money involved in armaments etc does, for me, necessitate a bit of thought into the bigger picture regarding conflict.
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Dont panic Mr Manwaring, Dont Panic!! Dads Army is deeply ingrained in the British psyche I can tell you!!
Hassan Butt has nailed it there. Anyone from London knows that it has always attempted to be a city of coexistence. The tensions on the fringes between establishing immigrant cultures and subsequently generated subcultures are what makes it such an exciting place to live. For fear of sounding too much like an unreconstructed hegelian marxist, violent urban unrest followed by consensus has typified the historical development of this great city and other British cities for that matter. Its a concern however that 2 and 3rd generation british Muslims still feel alienated enough to identify with medieval models of islam to the extent that they will blow up felow civilians to furhter their cause. As it has been rightly pointed out, its one thing for Muslims to understand that the secular west can liberate them from conservative theology and offer a better life, but its difficult to argue the cause of the secular west when it is being controlled by Christian Zealots who seem intent on ramping up a blood feud. -
I wonder if the American fear of/disdain for "the public" is at work here? A single bomb in a single public place (say, a train station, or airport) in the US would cause a mass abandonment of plans, and avoidance of that type of place
And you think a bomb in Wellington Railway Station - which is part of a major bus-rail hub literally a stone's throw from Parliament - wouldn't? Look, I think it's got more to do with the very simple physical reality that London is a very big city, and there are hundreds of thousands of people for whom commuting to work is a necessity not a lifestyle choice.
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Anyway, that hypothesizing aside, if the Americans are at one end of the spectrum in terms of reactions to would-be terrorist events, and the Brits are at the other, where would Kiwis likely fit?
I don't think we'd react as angrily as Americans tend to - I think such strong anger is a very American response - but I think we'd be a lot more traumatised than Brits.
I think terrorism is, as other people have pointed out, something that the British have a history of having. You couldn't say that of New Zealand, in any similar way.
I watched 'Out of the Blue' on Friday night, which was excellent. I walk my dog at Aramoana beach most weekends, so it was a little close to home and more disturbing as a result.
I think New Zealand is a country that would be deeply scarred by a major terrorist incident - a bus blowing up or something. We're a small country and everyone would know someone who knew one of the victims, someone would have come from our town, walked our streets. But I think we'd also have a healthy dose of 'keeping on with our way of life' as much as possible, rather than widesweeping changes.
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"I'm not a committed conspiracy theorist but....
I always feel the skeptic in me re-awakened at times like these. Whose interests are being served by the ongoing threat of "terrorTM"?"
Amen. Someone packs a car with petrol, throws nails on the floor, then drives it erratically and parks in front of a nightclub. That sure has all the hallmarks of Al Queda alright.. Personally, I'm with the guy who says those vehicles were designed as warnings, not bombs, and were addressed directly to the gay pride movement.
I still think it's appalling, but I wish the self-proclaimed rationalist community adopted more of a general attitude of critical skepticism about the origins of some of these scares. -
Cheers Kyle - it sure is a bit uncanny walking out at Aramoana Beach. I agree with your analysis of likely Kiwi responses.
That small country factor you mention also helped to explain the massive impact of the Erebus disaster (to the extent we still show documentaries about it).
And you think a bomb in Wellington Railway Station - which is part of a major bus-rail hub literally a stone's throw from Parliament - wouldn't?
Err, yes, I think it would actually. However, the question of how NZers would react, generally, to these sorts of events is a relatively open one.
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Are there others out there who wouldn't put it past certain organisations to 'sponsor' acts like these in order to justify their ongoing operations and keep the 'war' at the top of the agenda.
Y'know, a bit like creating the news then reporting it.
Nope. But I think it's reasonable to consider what we're prepared to tolerate to drive the risk of attack ever closer to zero.
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addressed directly to the gay pride movement
So why choose Tiger Tiger - it's a cattle market focused on B&T girls and guys on their big trip up to town.
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That sure has all the hallmarks of Al Queda alright.. Personally, I'm with the guy who says those vehicles were designed as warnings, not bombs, and were addressed directly to the gay pride movement
All though in these times it is difficult to dispel any conspirocy theory I think it is quite far fetched to think that this was directed at Gay Pride. Old Compton St would be the obious place to park a car bomb to attack the Gay community. It would also be a huge ramping up of violent activity by the Anti Gay brigade. Remember the london nail bomber was a member of the BNP and didn't only target gays he targeted ethnic communities Brixton and Brick Lane as well. When people use the term Al Queda it can give the impression of a well organised network of extremists working in unison. Although these guys may have received overseas funding for their bomb making, their only other link to Al Queda may just be as an inspitational force.
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And where is the heroic anti-terror squad that murdered the bearded brazilian?
The heros of the hour are parking wardens!
Who towed one of the car bombs to what looked like a pretty safe site - if it went to plan.The Rainbow warrior terrorists were caught by nosey neighbours (& immigration until they let them go).
There is no need for the SAS on every cnr or the 'Special Powers' that have been introduced in NZ & UK etc. -
I still think it's appalling, but I wish the self-proclaimed rationalist community adopted more of a general attitude of critical skepticism about the origins of some of these scares.
Yes. The guy I quoted from the BBC thread was a self-proclaimed libertarian, and the likes of Eric Raymond and Louis Rossetto have completely lost the plot in recent years.
Raymond's 'Anti-Idotarian Manifesto' (attack and invade all the bad people's countries and occupy them until they see things our way) is adolescent twaddle:
And, of course, Rossetto quoth, among other things, this:
The US should persevere militarily until we defeat the fascists in Iraq, as we did in Afghanistan, as we must everywhere. The US's biggest failure has not been on the battlefield — where we are relentlessly reducing our enemies — but in waging media war against the Islamists and their fellow travelers on the Left, and in rallying the American people, who are confused, and perhaps angered, that once again we are being called upon to save the world.
He said this only last year. The idea of exactly who the fascists are in Iraq, and whether they include the Iran-friendly elected government, or Sadrists, or whatever, doesn't seem to occur to him as a question. We're just gonna kill the bad guys, yeah!
And don't even get me started on Glenn Reynolds ...
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So why choose Tiger Tiger
The choice of target - a nightclub on Ladies' Night - is also revealing. When a similar gang plotted to blow up the Ministry of Sound in 2004, they talked about their desire to burn alive the "slags dancing around".
This is a reminder that the bombers are not only blowing back against the worst in our system of government: the torture and chemical weapons in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and our support for Arab dictators. They oppose the best in our system of government too: the intellectual freedom to write novels that question religion, the sexual freedom of women to pick their own partners.
When I receive my own tedious drizzle of jihadi death-threats, they always mention my homosexuality long before they get round to my views on foreign policy.
My partner took a taxi to Heathrow just a few days ago. The driver was a young guy - second generation Pakistani. They talked a bit about religion - he has the occasional drink and goes to the Mosque infrequently. According to him the Koran gave women rights that they didn't have beforehand. So the conversation was going fine and then he said - if my sister went with a non-Muslim I'd kill her.
There's something worrying going on in the psyche of some young men.
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All though in these times it is difficult to dispel any conspirocy theory I think it is quite far fetched to think that this was directed at Gay Pride. Old Compton St would be the obious place to park a car bomb to attack the Gay community. It would also be a huge ramping up of violent activity by the Anti Gay brigade. Remember the london nail bomber was a member of the BNP and didn't only target gays he targeted ethnic communities Brixton and Brick Lane as well.
OTOH, it was the same weekend as the annual gay pride parade. (Which was always, as I recall, a jolly good show.)
When people use the term Al Queda it can give the impression of a well organised network of extremists working in unison. Although these guys may have received overseas funding for their bomb making, their only other link to Al Queda may just be as an inspitational force.
I think they really need to stop saying "al Qaeda!" as a reflex. It looks like one of the suspects already arrested is a doctor from Iran, and thus extremely unlikely to be involved with a Sunni Islamist group.
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Don't Panic
Heh, when I saw today's Hard News title I presumed it was about the rugby!
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Its a concern however that 2 and 3rd generation british Muslims still feel alienated enough to identify with medieval models of islam to the extent that they will blow up felow civilians to furhter their cause.
The problem is more that we have a generation that is much more fundamentalist and zealous than their parents or grandparents, who simply wanted a new life. There's been some interesting stuff written about this.
But the idea that a minority Islamic community = sharia law in Europe is lame. If the current population of Muslims in Europe (53 million, and that includes the majority populations in Bosnia, Albania, etc, who've been there for centuries) doubles by 2020, it will still be under 20% of the total population.
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I disagree with the analogy between the bombing of innocent people in Afghanistan with the failed bombings to kill innocent people in London. On 9/11 people deliberately planned and executed a successful killing spree from Afghanistan and had the infrastructure there to continue. I don't know any sensible person who would not try and defend themsleves against that. Twice now, that I know of, have Forces in Afghanistan killed innocent people by mistake. I feel for those families and the bitterness they now deal with. War isn't nice but these Forces aren't Terrorists. If your nieghbours are hurling rocks at your house, do you just stand and watch? Should we have watched Hitler slaughter more people because we were afraid of making mistakes in defending against him?
In saying all that, let's continue to look for more positive solutions though!
"I have considerable faith in modernism. We've won so far; we'll win again."
Yes, but haven't these 'Terrorists' (I don't particularly like the term) been living in Britain for their whole lives...where's the positive influence of modernism if all they want to do is destroy it?
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All though in these times it is difficult to dispel any conspirocy theory I think it is quite far fetched to think that this was directed at Gay Pride. Old Compton St would be the obious place to park a car bomb to attack the Gay community.
OTOH, it was the same weekend as the annual gay pride parade. (Which was always, as I recall, a jolly good show.)
If you were aiming for the gay community you'd want to be bombing this.
LONDON, June 24, 2007 – Torn between loyalty to Pride London – but don’t want to miss Doctor Who?
The Pride London team and the Doctor Who producers have solved this dilemma by announcing that the last gripping episode in the current series will be shown on the big daylight screen in Trafalgar Square at 7.10pm on Pride Day, Saturday June 30.
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Yet if the jihad cannot be explained solely through geopolitics, it's only decent to consider this story, noting the death of 80 civilians in a single American attack in Afghanistan, alongside the weekend's incidents in Britain, in which, thankfully, no one was even injured. While we are frightened by the callousness and evil intent of the homegrown British plots, it's as well to bear in mind the other innocents who died these past few days.
That was not an American "attack", that was an American "defence". A Taliban force launched an attack and were then pursued by the Americans to the village.
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