Hard News: Don't Panic
102 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 Newer→ Last
-
dc_red wrote:
Err, yes, I think it would actually. However, the question of how NZers would react, generally, to these sorts of events is a relatively open one.
Well, I guess you're right - after all, back in 1985 the DGSE planted bombs on a boat in Auckland Harbour timed to go off in the middle of the night, not a CBD office building at the morning rush hour. Only one man was killed, so I guess that would fit any definition of trivial and relatively unsucessful.
Generally, that's the extent of state-sponsored terrorism in this country in my lifetime.
Having said that, dc_red, I suggest you have a listen to my post-ANZAC Day PA Radio piece on the despicable treatment of Professor George von Zedlitz and other New Zealanders of German descent during the First World War.
All I'm saying is that before we get our smug on with too much gay abandon, it might help if we were 1) just clear that we've never had anything even remotely in the vicinity of the WTC attacks or the railway bombing happen here, and, 2) New Zealand is very far from inhospitable ground for war fever.
-
<quaote>But the idea that a minority Islamic community = sharia law in Europe is lame. </quote>
Absolutley. Its just a worry that there are dansgerous nutters out there who are so alienated that they cant see the wood through the trees. One theory that kind of makes sense even though it is a generalisation of course, is that muslim boys brought up by their parents to expect a place at the top of the social heirarchy (little muslim princes) struggle to cope with rejection and racism in a secular society and feel that muslim women in particular have gained so much more freedom than them. Fundamentalism is appealing to them as a way of regainining their natural status. This is just an observation but while I worked at South Bank Uni in london which had the highest ethnic student cohort of any british uni, it was obvious that the Asian women students seemed to be flourishing and embracing western fashions and values where as a large percentage of asian Men appeared withdrawn and struggled with their courses. The Islamic society was a constent cause for concern with the Union and University authorities because of its radicalism. (Zacharias Mouusaui was a student while I was there btw.) -
I disagree with the analogy between the bombing of innocent people in Afghanistan with the failed bombings to kill innocent people in London. On 9/11 people deliberately planned and executed a successful killing spree from Afghanistan and had the infrastructure there to continue. I don't know any sensible person who would not try and defend themsleves against that.
Quite. I always thought there had to be a military response in that case, although it appalled me the way the innocent victims never got a namecheck when Bush paid tribute to the US soldiers who fell in Afghanistan. And of course, I wish the US had actually completed the job in Afghanistan rather than invading Iraq.
But it wasn't an analogy, it was an observation: no one dies in London and it's global headlines. 80 people die in a single incident in Afghanistan and it's page five material.
The relevant question in Afghanistan has always been the style of warfare - specifically, air bombardment, which saves soldiers' lives at the expense of the civilians in the way. The official Afghan govt/US/UN body estimated that about 1000 Afghan civilians (ie: not terrorists) were killed in such combat operations in 2006 alone.
-
If you were aiming for the gay community you'd want to be bombing this.
Well, frankly if I was an Islamic fundamentalist I wouldn't really give a shit if I wiped out a load of sodomites, immodest whores flaunting themselves while jiggling to dance music to tempt men into sin, or infidels going to Meopause The Musical. The West End of London is a cesspool of depravity.
The problem is more that we have a generation that is much more fundamentalist and zealous than their parents or grandparents, who simply wanted a new life. There's been some interesting stuff written about this.
Indeed, Russell, and don't you think you've gone a long way to answering your own question? Ten years ago, Hanif Kureishi wrote the screenplay (based on his own short story) to lMy Son, The Fanatic, which could do with a (wide) re-release.
Despire their seemingly irreconcilable opposition, father and son Parvez (Om Puri) and Farid (Akbar Kurtha) have more in common than otherwise. Both are uncomfortable with their native cultures (Pakistani in Parvez's case, British in Farid's), both are swayed by the malign influence of foreign father-figures (the sleazy German businessman Schitz; the Islamic holy man whom Farid invites into the family home), and both seek solace in a form of spiritual communion - in Parvez's case, his worship of the prostitute Bettina (Rachel Griffiths) from afar, his much-vaunted "respect for women" preventing him from making the first move.
But where they differ is their attitude towards integrating with their surroundings. Here, Kureishi inverts the usual stereotype by presenting father Parvez as the liberal (though he retains traditional views on children respecting their parents) while Farid seeks to cleanse the town of immorality. His stated reason for turning to religion is out of his disgust at the way modern life derives from "empty accountancy", whether expressed through consumerism or prostitution (Schitz has interests in both professions), and although the film is largely seen through Parvez's increasingly bewildered eyes, Kureishi ensures that Farid's position is given a fair hearing.
Ultimately, both Parvez and Farid are clinging on to imaginary utopias. Parvez has a vision of a tolerant Britain which is undermined by experience (most directly by the club comedian singling him out for racist abuse), while Farid similarly dreams of an equally imaginary Pakistan, where pure Islamic values hold sway. Their inability to reconcile their ideas both with each other and with the outside world (and with wife/mother Minoo, unwillingly trapped between the warring pair) gives the film an authentically tragic edge. Like director Udayan Prasad's earlier Brothers In Trouble (1995), the ending is tantalisingly open - but unlike that film, there's little sign that it's especially upbeat.
And that's ultimately the appeal of any fundamentalist ideology, isn't it -- be it religious, political, cultural or some toxic cocktail of all the above? When the world is a big, frightful place - thinking and feeling is not only scary, it often feels utterly impotent. Better to let someone else do you thinking for you, especially when they're telling you exactly who to blame for everything that's wrong in your life.
Of course, fundamentalism is much more attractive when (ironically enough) you've never had to live with the reality of your utopia. And then, from the other end, it's fair comment to ask just how open and tolerance can an open society be of people who want nothing less than it's utter destruction? Don't know if I've got a soundbite for that either, but I think it's an argument Gordon Brown (and everyone else) better start taking seriously.
-
Heh, when I saw today's Hard News title I presumed it was about the rugby!
Heh - me too!
-
This is just an observation but while I worked at South Bank Uni in london which had the highest ethnic student cohort of any british uni, it was obvious that the Asian women students seemed to be flourishing and embracing western fashions and values where as a large percentage of asian Men appeared withdrawn and struggled with their courses. The Islamic society was a constant cause for concern with the Union and University authorities because of its radicalism. (Zacharias Mouusaui was a student while I was there btw.)
It's a bloody interesting observation. Some of the jihadists are recruited at university level, and can't been seen to be oppressed in any conventional sense.
But universities have long been fertile soil for radicalism. The lunatic ideas of Baader-Meinhoff and the Red Brigades were nurtured in the halls of learning. There's a body of opinion that holds that in form, the Islamist "revolutionaries" are more like radical leftists than they are ordinary Muslims.
-
"Of course, fundamentalism is much more attractive when (ironically enough) you've never had to live with the reality of your utopia. And then, from the other end, it's fair comment to ask just how open and tolerance can an open society be of people who want nothing less than it's utter destruction?"
Good point Craig, I like that first sentence. I would also challenge 'Christian Zealots' to give that some thought. I for one do not subscribe to the view that the 'Kingdom of God' that Jesus spoke of should be militarily brought about. The sort of utopia that may result in may not be too far from Talibanistan.
BTW how do you insert a comment, as with Richard aboev, in grey nd not C&P like I have?
-
Good point Craig, I like that first sentence. I would also challenge 'Christian Zealots' to give that some thought. I for one do not subscribe to the view that the 'Kingdom of God' that Jesus spoke of should be militarily brought about. The sort of utopia that may result in may not be too far from Talibanistan.
You may be disturbed if you happen to catch the documentaries 'Jesus Camp' or 'God's Next Army' then. It's not so much that they're as bad as the jihadists - they're not - as the impression that they would quite like to be.
BTW how do you insert a comment, as with Richard aboev, in grey nd not C&P like I have?
See the instructions next to the window you're typing into. Do the quote tags around your quoted text as shown.
-
But universities have long been fertile soil for radicalism. The lunatic ideas of Baader-Meinhoff and the Red Brigades were nurtured in the halls of learning.
indeed. it's become trite to point out that pol pot, the butcher of cambodia, studied in paris under jean-paul sartre. from wikipedia
Historian Philip Short has said that Pol Pot's poor academic record was a considerable advantage within the anti-intellectual [french communist party] and helped him to quickly establish a leadership role for himself among the Cercle Marxiste.
-
"Testing...HTML 101"
-
Yahoo...I did it!!
-
<blockquote><p>"Testing...HTML 101"</p></blockquote>
-
back to school for me.
-
back to school for me.
don't listen to the radicals...
but seriously. someone argued at webstock that non-standard html like the ones used here act to dumb-down web-users.
but nvm. please carry on.
-
This story from Prospect magazine, by a BBC researcher trying to follow the life of one of the 7/7 bombers, is highly informative.
These young people are being drawn away from their own traditions in favour of the certainties of wahhabism, which has deep pockets, thanks in part to the $2 - $3 billion that flows out of Saudi Arabia annually for its promotion.
The reality much more nuanced than the usual "clash of civilisations" bilge. Damned if I know what ought to be done about it though.
-
<blockquote><p>"Testing...HTML 101"</p></blockquote>
No, you can't use real HTML here, as a security thing.
-
There's a body of opinion that holds that in form, the Islamist "revolutionaries" are more like radical leftists than they are ordinary Muslims.
Didn't Baudrillard consider the 9/11 attacks as an aesthetic spectacle resulting from forces of globalised capitalism? I suppose the post 68 nihilism endemic in contemporary Marxist theory could explain the reason why some on the left find it difficult to condemn the slaughter of civilians by religious fundamentalists. I think most of the 9/11 attackers were well eduacted middle class boys were they not? I just tend to think that hijacking a plane and flying it into the side of a huge building is just a case of plain cruel mass murder.
-
The reality much more nuanced than the usual "clash of civilisations" bilge. Damned if I know what ought to be done about it though
Didnt Potus recently suggest ending our addiction to oil. It would nice to see the jerk and his mates take the lead on this one but somehow I doubt it. The Hypocrisy of dealing with and enriching the odious Saudi regime while condeming the the likes of Syria and Iran of promoting terrorism should never be understated.
-
The thing I remember most about 7/7 was the masses of people streaming up Upper Street in Islington from the city and sitting and drinking and spilling out of all the pubs into the sun on a beautiful summer's day trying to work out what had just happened down the hill at Kings Cross.
There's so many people and so many things going on in London around you every day that your brain simply blocks out a lot of it to keep you sane. I had to catch the tube home from White City where I worked at the time for the Beeb to Islington on the other side of the city after the following attempted bombings, and while it was a bit spooky, if I wanted to get home I had to catch the tube so I simply did it. The armed police and helicopters circling overhead just became a part of life, the same as the inevitable stinky commuters sharing the overheated ram packed carriage with you.
I've lived in London on and off through the IRA bombings of the mid 90s and early 2000, through the panic after 9/11 and the most recent round of bombings and attempted bombings. I know my work colleagues and mates back in London will just be carrying on as normal. To be fair to the Americans too, I lived in NYC straight after 9/11 having moved there from London. New Yorkers were remarkably stoic after 9/11 while the rest of the country had its nervous breakdown over the whole event. If you live with something, it becomes a part of your reality and you simply deal with it. That's just how it is if you live in London these days too. The odds of getting run over by a bus are higher than being a casualty in a terrorist incident, so if you want to be able to leave your house, you simply can't worry too much about it.
-
I don't see this as a religious war.
The aim isn't to convert or destroy the west or judeo-christian tradition (oh maybe that crusading thing - they might want to stop that). And the attacks aren't that big when compared to the activities of the west. Certainly not an eye for an eye.Fox
Gota link to : post 68 nihilism Marxist theory ??Old family friends used to support Sein Feinn & other groups like the ANC from NZ (an act now counted as Terrorisim itself in NZ).
Religion was used as a handy handle for what was really a battle for political and economic equity.Of course the real reason there is peace in Ireland.
Loyal or Republican no-one could compete with suicide bombers.
And you don't want to be a second rate terrorist - it losses its edge if the cops sigh with relief when you tell them there's a bomb & you've got 20mins. -
Londoner's have been raised on stories of how their grandparents survived 'the Blitz' in WWII, how they showed Jerry a thing or two by singing songs while the V2's rained down ...
-
The thing I remember most ...
gervais mate... i would think memory loss would have cut in years ago.
-
1. To me, in our connected world it appears that the further one is distanced from a terrorist incident, the more the fear-inducing effect of the media works its magic and the more one appears frightened by it.
This effect has been observed with Australian relatives refusing to visit us in Koh Samui because there were a series of small bombs two weeks earlier in Bangkok. They were only planning to transit through Bangkok airport.
And of course by Kiwi family friends cancelling their holiday to Europe (UK for two weeks, mainland Europe 4 weeks) owing to the terrorist threat after the London bombings of 7/7
'Stoic Brits'. In the UK people just have to live with this: there is really no choice.
A number of commentators appear to be confusing Islam with Islamism
-
Regarding the radicalisation of terrerists at university, perhaps the reason why the IRA were fairly effective was that they mostly *didn't* go to university.
-
Don't all terrorists have at their core a legitimate grievence that history will eventually pove them right (if not rightous as we now celebrate the ANC)?
The IRA were disenfranchised from power/money etc in their own land, so too the ANC.
I strongly suspect this is the same in Birmingham, not to mention family passing on the unreported truth of what is happening back 'home'.
Post your response…
This topic is closed.