Hard News: About Chris Brown
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chris, in reply to
If Chris Brown was a New Zealander what would be his chances of getting a visa to perform in the United States under identical circumstances?
Not that it answers your question but he probably would have been given diversion for the Rihanna attack (I can’t find any priors). Given the circumstances and his age at that time, presumption as to what might have ensued is problematic. There have been a few New Zealand celebrities discharged without conviction in recent years, a replication of Brown’s circumstances would be an anomaly.
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izogi, in reply to
Kelvin Davis raised this on Radio NZ saying one of his family who did screw up when young can’t even get a transit visa for 2 hours in la to get to the UK. if you want to go to america, make sure you’ve never broken the law.
On a tangent, the latest twist to come from Australia is that young children born to parents with NZ citizenship are now actively in line to be deported from Australia, even though they’ve lived in Australia their entire lives with parents who live there legally. Aside from the obvious immediate problems and however they and their families might end up getting through it, I guess this means they’ll have to tick the Yes box, for having been deported, on every international arrival card from now on.
Their crime? Being born in Australia to parents with NZ citizenship by descent, and so having no citizenship status with either country, thus being in Australia unlawfully. Predictions are that 1500 children are in similar circumstances.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
it doesn’t help in other Countries. I’m surprised.
In that many countries have an immigration declaration question along the lines of, “Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offence?”, and other countries’ clean-slate laws are irrelevant to making such a declaration.
But as far as you're concerned, you're allowed to say no with a clear conscience under our law. And the other country couldn't find you out if it tried.
Dirty little secret: they basically couldn't really find out before.
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Not breaking a law and not getting caught aren't quite the same thing :-)
The Clean Slate Act says nothing in the act allows you to answer no criminal convictions if another country asks, and that it's ok to disclose to other countries' law enforcement.
I would expect more international data sharing in years to come. The Coroner reporting into Edward Livingstone's murder-suicide pointed out that if the police here had known of his Australian convictions, they could have better responded to his breach of protection orders. There was also a teenager killed by her mum's boyfriend, who had no idea of his serious criminal history in Australia. It seems likely to me that data matching becomes a lot more common.
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chris, in reply to
Yes, I’m perfectly happy with Collins being held accountable to her record as a minister of the Crown but I’m less than convinced this is the time or place for political point scoring
It does appear to be time for this discussion though and I think most here are capable of handling the nuance of a mature discussion that doesn’t simply devolve into X good ergo Y bad.
She has not talked to Brown himself, but believes that he has atoned.[…]"She had years to actually intervene and actually do something constructive while she was Minister,” she said.
Disagreeing with Dame Tariana Turia need not obviate all criticism of Collins who seems quite capable of standing up for herself. If our democracy hadn’t already devolved into little more than a politician point scoring match then there would obviously be some precedent to work with, but that seems to be largely how politicians operate nowadays so I don't see a need to ignore their contributions. In order to fully address the mixed messaging of our society, in order to make any progress whatsoever to underlying attitudes it’s essential that each point is assessed individually on its merits or lack thereof. I had no idea that Collins had defended Williamson until I read Logie’s post.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
It makes me wonder just what *would* be unforgivable in society’s eyes.
Not having an acceptable level of charm/charisma, and the secondary associated entertainment value that goes with that.
You can get away with an awful lot if you're silver-tongued and reasonably easy on the eye. Not so much if you're a semi-incoherent lardsack.
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Sacha, in reply to
Not having an acceptable level of charm/charisma, and the secondary associated entertainment value that goes with that.
Aspergers, then.
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izogi, in reply to
I’m staggered it can apply to someone who broke his partner’s back. There are people who have died because their partner’s or family member’s violent history wasn’t disclosed.
In retrospect I'm also surprised. I wasn't paying full attention in 2004, but the main focus of publicity I remember was on whether potential employers should be allowed to judge people on ancient minor convictions. Maybe I missed other discussions. I had a quick scan through Hansard from 2004 and those debates are stacked with references to employment matters, but I couldn't find any obvious references to anything like family violence even being discussed*.
Considering more recent publicity about domestic violence, I wonder if that might have been given closer consideration had the Bill been debated today. I find it concerning that it's apparently illegal for certain previous relevant convictions about violence against former partners and children to be revealed to a new partner.
* I'm probably using Hansard wrong or misunderstanding parliamentary process, because all I can find is a second reading which occurrs a week after a third reading. Am I missing something?
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Rich Lock, in reply to
Aspergers, then.
No. One thing I remember from the Chris Brown/Rhianna assault is the thousands of fans who were not only willing to turn a blind eye, but who were actively justifying his actions, and seeking to shout down and suppress dissenting voices. Similarly Veitch, alhough to a lesser extent. And, obviously, it's ongoing.
Basic human psychology: if you like someone, you're going to act in your own head to play down the bad and accentuate the good.
If, like me, you have a head like a potato and a bad case of resting bitchy face, and don't do particulaly well in high-pressure vocal situations (and can't afford the PR staff to front that shit for you), your dose of public sympathy is going to be far smaller.
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I can't stand Veitch. Apart from anything else, he fawns in the most sickening way over sports stars and spends most of his time on air recounting his various soirées he attends to ingratiate himself with the grea and the good of NZ sport.
On a more personal level, I heard a friend of mine tell of her reasonably recent encounter with Veitch in a Ponsonby bar that was... interesting.
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Aspergers, then.
Aspie speaking here.
I must have taken your post literally. I am struggling with the nuance.
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OK, should have added :)
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Rosemary McDonald, in reply to
If, like me, you have a head like a potato and a bad case of resting bitchy face, and don’t do particulary well in high-pressure vocal situations (and can’t afford the PR staff to front that shit for you), your dose of public sympathy is going to be far smaller.
You too, eh?
We should form a club.... :)
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Just leaving this here, because I’m too freaking grossed out and angry to say anything remotely constructive…
Chris Brown is about to get new high-powered support for his bid to enter New Zealand – this time from three Maori Dames, a Lady and a former Women’s Refuge boss.
The support of five new prominent and powerful Maori women comes after former Cabinet minister, Dame Turiana Turia, spoke in support of Brown being allowed to enter the country.
Promoters for Brown have sent an invitation to a press conference today, saying it would see the “National Urban Maori Authority speak out in the wake of Dame Tariana Turia’s strong support of Chris Brown.”
It brings support from the upper reaches of Maoridom along with the heft of the National Urban Maori Authority, which runs the commissioning agency dispensing whanau ora funds – including into domestic violence programmes.
In what way is any of this even remotely appropriate?
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Danielle, in reply to
the thousands of fans who were not only willing to turn a blind eye, but who were actively justifying his actions, and seeking to shout down and suppress dissenting voices
There are even people in the comments of the police report article Russell links to doing just that, which boggles the mind.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
Dirty little secret: they basically couldn’t really find out before.
For many of those questions that is not the point. The point is should they need to throw you in jail, they can do so for lying on an official document this is then used to allow the authorities time to gather evidence for the crime for which they do want to charge you.
In such circumstances they can almost certainly get the information they need/want.
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Chris Brown is about to get new high-powered support for his bid to enter New Zealand – this time from three Maori Dames, a Lady and a former Women’s Refuge boss.
It seems like the supporters are taking advantage of the publicity but in a naiive way. A quick look at womensrefuge doesn't show any mention of the debate.
A closer look shows this new item> which shows a more perceptive take on brand and why any support for Chris Brown is a non-starter.
Women's Refuge Statement about Julian Savea and NZRU
Women’s Refuge is disappointed the New Zealand Rugby Union allowed Julian Savea to play over the weekend despite being charged with assault last week.
“Domestic violence is a serious crime and one of the biggest social problems in New Zealand. When an All Black has been charged with a domestic violence offence, I would have thought the All Black 'brand' would want to act decisively to distance itself from such an action,” says Refuge Chief Executive Heather Henare.
“It should then have come out publically with comments about how dimly it views any criminal offending, including domestic violence.”
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
You can get away with an awful lot if you're silver-tongued and reasonably easy on the eye. Not so much if you're a semi-incoherent lardsack.
I know the feeling.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
In what way is any of this even remotely appropriate?
To be fair, the article states "Chris Brown is about to get new high-powered support for his bid to enter New Zealand - this time from three Maori Dames, a Lady and a former Women's Refuge boss."
But says "Promoters for Brown have sent an invitation to a press conference today, saying it would see the "National Urban Maori Authority speak out in the wake of Dame Tariana Turia's strong support of Chris Brown."
It does not say they support Dame Tariana Turia but the Herald certainly makes it sound that way. -
Kumara Republic, in reply to
I can’t stand Veitch. Apart from anything else, he fawns in the most sickening way over sports stars and spends most of his time on air recounting his various soirées he attends to ingratiate himself with the grea and the good of NZ sport.
To be charitable, Tony Veitch is effectively the anointed successor to Murray Deaker.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Dirty little secret: they basically couldn’t really find out before.
Wellll. I don't think I'd risk that, in the case of the USA. Goodness knows what they've got on us all.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
"Promoters for Brown have sent an invitation to a press conference today, saying it would see the "National Urban Maori Authority speak out in the wake of Dame Tariana Turia's strong support of Chris Brown."
NUMA's chair is Willie Jackson, who also supported the entry of Mike Tyson on the grounds that he was a "role model". He even wrote a Herald column about it:
The hypocrisy of this matter raises several questions. Why is it No to Tyson, but Yes to so many other criminals who have come to this country?
Australia's most notorious criminal, Chopper Read, and the triple murderers the West Memphis Three are recent examples of that.
Far out. The Chopper Read who visited New Zealand was comedian Heath Franklin playing the part of Chopper Read.
And the West Memphis Three were, y'know, innocent.
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So yeah, the NUMA women all spoke in support of welcoming Chris Brown today.
Maori dames have spoken out in favour of rapper Chris Brown's visit to New Zealand in spite of his assault convictions.
Dame June Mariu, Dame June Jackson, Dame Iritana Tawhiwhirangi, Lady Tureiti-Moxon, and former New Zealand's Woman's Refuge chief executive Merepeka Raukawa-Tait said it was important Brown was allowed to perform in New Zealand.
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Lilith __, in reply to
said it was important Brown was allowed to perform in New Zealand
I'd challenge anyone to explain why it's "important".
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
Maori dames have spoken out in favour of rapper Chris Brown's visit to New Zealand in spite of his assault convictions.
WTF?
The statistics mean Maori are really good at violence, they must enjoy it then...
Can't think of any other reason their leaders seem to encourage it.
Ethnic Identity and Intimate Partner Violence in a New Zealand Birth Cohort MSD
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