Up Front: Stand for... Something
210 Responses
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dcrobertson01, in reply to
Wow - who is saying that? Who has even suggested that? Anybody? No. You just want imply anybody who thinks we should be proud of our country wants to go back to the 50's.
The more I have seen of the world, the more I think we should be proud of what our country has done. We shouldn't try to hide all the stuff we got wrong either, but remember and fix what we can.
I know I wasn't personally responsible for our democratic system and universal suffrage, but I did play a part in getting MMP, and without the former, we could not have the latter.
I don't see why we can't be proud of good things our country has done. Seems a bit like those people who, if you commiserate with their poor fortune by saying sorry, reply 'why? it wasn't your fault'. No - it wasn't, but that does not make me indifferent.
We're all proud of things we don't have a lot of control over. We feel loyalty to schools we no longer attend and fund raise so our children's schools can build things after our children leave. We're proud when a New Zealand author wins a prize, or the Hollywood financed film of a British book set in a mythical world does well overseas, or when someone whose parents brought her to New Zealand when she was five is the best in the world at knocking a ball into a hole with a stick.
None of it makes sense. Well, with the amount of state funding that goes into stuff like that, I guess we are a bit responsible :-)
To argue we shouldn’t is to argue we are rational - good luck with that.
BTW "It ought to be deeply impressed on the minds of all who have voices in this national deliberation, that no man can deserve a seat in parliament, who is not a patriot. No other man will protect our rights: no other man can merit our confidence." Samuel Johnson. Pre feminism, obviously.
http://www.samueljohnson.com/thepatriot.html -
Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
The above is a bizarre batshit crazy scenario, but honestly is it more bizarre than using Slater to tar your opponents?
I'm behind your scenario 100% but then you also know I'm probably batshit crazy meself. Still, sounds textbook to me. Once this Govt. started to unravel, everything else has fallen into line. Hager cemented many of my views as well. I don't think he is batshit crazy.
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I find it a pity that the Kiwi became the iconic bird of NZ. I like Tuis better. At least we actually see and hear Tuis around the place. Being black and white works better on a flag, too.
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nzlemming, in reply to
I just want to say I am disappointed in these comments. Nothing but polite, erudite, intelligent discussion. What the fuck is the internet coming to.
Kiwibog is thataway >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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st ephen, in reply to
That such a conversation could simply be accepted in the spirit in which it was uttered is something to be bloody proud of.
Unfortunately it's the sort of thing that the Dirty Politics crew file away for later use. And if you're a public health, climate change or environmental researcher you can eventually expect your employer to be hit with a formal complaint and you may even be on the receiving end of an official reprimand. But sure - if you're already considered an outlier by National's Black Ops standards you have nothing further to worry about.
We can be proud of how we were - not so much of what we've become. -
nzlemming, in reply to
The above is a bizarre batshit crazy scenario, but honestly is it more bizarre than using Slater to tar your opponents?
I don't think it's that batshit crazy at all.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Well, and then:
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...<until you reach the sludge>
Then it's > \/ < /\ > \/ < /\ ....forever. -
Jeremy Andrew, in reply to
Of all the designs submitted so far, this is the one that most compels me: “Matariki at midnight”.Except for me this is always The Pleiades and don’t feel really New Zealand. But that is probably just me.
But we'll be a shoo-in for sponsorship by Subaru!
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
It’s hard to see how we could get a flag that completely ignores that NZ is currently a constitutional monarchy under the Brits.
When I look down the list of Commonwealth members, the only other countries that still retain the Union Jack as part of their flags are Australia, Fiji and Tuvalu (and of course the UK). Of the others, I can't in any way tell from their flags which ones are still constitutional monarchies under the Brits (lots of them), and which ones are republics (some of them). So I'm not really seeing the necessity of recognising the Brits on our flag at all.
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Oh and just to point out that I agree with Craig
While I am not that invested in a new flag and while I might prefer money be spent elsewhere and even if it is some weird right wing plot ...
this could be turned into something good. We could either affirm that we all quite like the connection with England and our history OR we could create a new flag the makes people happy in some way.
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Katharine Moody, in reply to
Gee, that is a beautiful concept - inspiring and thoughtful. I agree - this process is highly unlikely to get us there.
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“The laser beam projects a powerful image of New Zealand. I believe my design is so powerful it does not need to be discussed.”
Not everyone is taking it seriously, the Independent notes.
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Redoing post....bother
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william blake, in reply to
I love the Pleiades as a symbol of unity. It spends six months of the year in the Northern sky and the other six in the South. Matariki is our own new year.
It is also very Kiwi by being quite small but also quite distinct in the cosmos and no one (pre Hubble) can agree on how many stars make up the constellation.
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BenWilson, in reply to
So I’m not really seeing the necessity of recognising the Brits on our flag at all.
True, if 50 other Commonwealth countries can do it, why not us? But I think my point is somewhat made by the noticeable lack of cultural signifiers in a great many of those flags. Most new countries are very much multicultural, so it's a safer choice not to load it up with symbols of the current political and social power structures, which can change, and selective representation in a flag can serve to undermine the appreciation of it, and the whole idea of the national unity that it's meant to stand for.
Not that I care much. I don't wrap myself in the flag now, and I won't do it in future either. I might wrap myself up in team colors sometimes, but they're a different thing altogether. That said, if it's an actually cool flag...
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Flag debates:
Canada
South Africa and an article about its designer
And to show "we are not alone".....
We could follow an Iraqi idea across the flag maybe......"He nui Hoani" -
I did quite a bit of thinking about this national character thing for the Great New Zealand Argument book, and one big thing I came up with was an aversion to theory. When New Zealand's social welfare system was established, reformers came from all over the world to hear what we had to say about it – which turned out to be bugger-all. It had just seemed a practical thing to do.
Mind you, we didn't later think much about the reforms of Rogernomics, for much the same reason.
I also concluded that we tended to work best at the intersection of practicality and creativity. Historically, we've been the skilled roadies and the great on-tour chefs rather than the rockstars.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
I love the Pleiades as a symbol of unity. It spends six months of the year in the Northern sky and the other six in the South. Matariki is our own new year.
But the southern cross is all about the Southern Hemisphere. No messy history from those pesky Greeks. All ours - well except for all the other people who see it :).
I guess I'm not hating it just that it doesn't feel as "New Zealand" to me as it does for other folks.
Now if we could get this on the flag
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BenWilson, in reply to
No messy history from those pesky Greeks.
With key stars named after mythical Greek half-horse, half men :-). There’s no escaping them Greeks. Nor the Romans, if we must have Crux as our symbol. Nor Christianity, for that matter :);)
ETA: I mean imagine the furore if we chose to have a sickle moon on there.
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Hilary Stace, in reply to
That bit about no theory is not quite right. Those old lefties (men and women) who formed the basis of the Labour Party in government had been talking and arguing about a better way for years. There was the Clarion movement out of Scotland that many immigrants brought with them and then the Red Feds, and those anti-conscription activists imprisoned in WW1 probably had a lot of time to talk, and even the WEA discussion groups from the 1920s were a ferment of self-education and ideas. So when they finally got into power it sort of fell into place.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
There will be times, when the flag will need to be hand made.
Interesting point. But in this age of easy high quality printing maybe a flag with huge gorgeous detail that can be summarized easily.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Yes it could be one of those mosaics made from thousands of smaller pictures. And a stereogram as well, to give us the first flag people stare at crosseyed by choice.
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So simple, effective and has been our de facto flag for a couple of decades.
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Or do away with the fabric all together and make the flag an actual 3D-printed cloud.
I don’t like a predominantly black flag. Colours in national flags are supposed to stand for something, e.g red for strength, white for peace, blue for water and naval prowess. What does black signify about the New Zealand identity?
Also, as a guideline I think a flag should be simple enough that a child can draw it from memory.
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I'm with Hillary, my favourite too, but I don't think Key's flag panel would consider it, not jingoistic enough
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