Polity by Rob Salmond

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Polity: Refugees and aid - we’re laggards

143 Responses

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  • Daman Saini,

    I can see that a lot of people are sensitive regarding this topic and obviously hate National. Which is fine.

    Give me few moments here to gather my research and address your concerns.
    ;)

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Not sure if this is the right place but recent events brought this to mind.

    I'm the son of Dutch parents. My parents came to New Zealand in the early 1950s along with rough 50 000 other people from The Netherlands. Essentially, they were refugees. After the second world war The Netherlands was buggered, the combination of five years of hostile occupation, a scorched earth policy by the German army as they left The Netherlands and a sudden influx of Dutch back into The Netherlands as Indonesia moved to independence combined to make life in their country pretty awful.

    New Zealand took 50 000 of them! Today we are talking about 600 as if it is an insurmountable challenge.

    What happened in the last 65 years to take the compassion and generosity out of this country's leadership.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to steven crawford,

    Hi Steven, I meant that the refugees are in shock because they fled their homes. Also, they will suffer culture shock when they arrive in New Zealand, as most people do anyway, which isn't a big deal as overtime people get used to New Zealand, and how things function.

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    The Dutch immigrants after WWII were white and Christian.

    Going by all the straw man arguments and "Winston sez" up thread, despite our supposed commitment to multiculturalism, if you're non-white and non-Christian, you can fuck right off, according to many. Still.

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 701 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Daman Saini,

    I can see that a lot of people are sensitive regarding this topic and obviously hate National. Which is fine.

    We are a sensitive lot, you should see what happens when we discuss copyright.
    However, I don't think we hate National per se, its just that we can see what they are doing and we dislike it.
    We dislike it a lot.
    Must go, my National stooge alarm is going off.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    But we are just assuming the fact that “these people” are highly educated, I don’t doubt that they are, but I doubt all of them are. Are we talking about settling them in state houses? Or will we try and establish some other deal so they have shelter?
    In a state of international emergency, providing assistance is the right thing to do, but other people in this discussion have mentioned that we are facing child poverty issues, which are not being addressed, but immense focus has been put on the refugees, don’t you think we should clean up our backyard first before we go solving other issues?
    I’ve found some numbers here , I think they are excessive, but that is just my opinion. There is a lot of tension about me supporting national, I don’t. I support people who are looking out for the good of New Zealand, and are not wasting money on war. I’ve just stated the facts I’ve found through journalists.
    At the end of June 2015:
    • 285,349 working-age* people were receiving a main benefit
    • ten percent of the working-age population of New Zealand** were receiving a main benefit
    • over half (58%) of main benefit recipients were female, and 42 percent were male
    • forty-one percent of main benefit recipients were receiving Jobseeker Support, 33 percent were receiving Supported Living Payment and 24 percent were receiving Sole Parent Support
    • around three-quarters (74%) of main benefit recipients had been receiving a benefit continuously for more than one year.

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to TracyMac,

    The Dutch immigrants after WWII were white and Christian.

    Going by all the straw man arguments and “Winston sez” up thread, despite our supposed commitment to multiculturalism, if you’re non-white and non-Christian, you can fuck right off, according to many. Still.

    Yeah that is clearly a factor and probably more of a factor 65 years ago. But the sheer scale of what happened back then makes the hand wringing going on now about 600 people absurd ... or it would be absurd if we weren't talking about real human beings.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Daman Saini,

    my opinion

    Your opinion ... Steve's data. Your opinion ... Steve's data.

    So hard to choose

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    You're very logical. Must say

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    I agree, that war is expensive and the money spent fighting a pointless war can be used to re home people. But language barrier will still be an issue, I’m talking in terms of employment. Maybe we can first help these refugees learn English so their transition into the work force is easier.

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Daman Saini,

    Or will we try and establish some other deal so they have shelter?

    We already take in refugees! If we can waste around $40 million (it will be if we change) on a whim and a fancy of Keys flag ,I think we can let some extra people in bearing in mind the UNHCR covers many expenses and Housing NZ has said they can accommodate them and the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church have offered as well.
    We are continuously told about our "Rock Star" economy, so letting a measly 600 over 3 years in is not going to have an enormous effect. The other Refugees that are our quota have already been budgeted for. John key get's $40 mil, 600 refugees get shelter. The Refugee Centre in Mangere takes them in first to orient them. Then they will be housed. Not letting them in ain't gonna fix delapidated schools,help homeless , feed our poor kids, National don't care about that.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Daman Saini,

    Are we talking about settling them in state houses? Or will we try and establish some other deal so they have shelter?

    We will not have any State houses by then so the latter will apply, we shall call this... Plan A.

    In a state of international emergency, providing assistance is the right thing to do, but other people in this discussion have mentioned that we are facing child poverty issues, which are not being addressed,

    True but they are not mutually exclusive, we should be doing both and that is the point. How can John Key bow to popular sentiment over refugees while ignoring the plight of our own needy. The fact is that those on the Right resent anybody getting a hand up and presume that the way forward is the "Trickle Down Theory".
    We shall, also, call this Plan A.

    There is a lot of tension about me supporting national, I don’t. I support people who are looking out for the good of New Zealand

    Those are, I am afraid, mutually exclusive, to support both would need a level of cognitive dissonance beyond the realms of the most simple logic.

    I’ve just stated the facts I’ve found through journalists.

    Now, see, there's your problem... thems ain't facts, thems factoids.

    But language barrier will still be an issue, I’m talking in terms of employment. Maybe we can first help these refugees learn English so their transition into the work force is easier.

    I think you will find, if you look, that a large proportion of Syrian refugees are fluent in English.
    As to alternatives to the first two answers, we could call those Plan B.
    According to Bill English, Steven Joyce and John Key, there is no plan B, for anything, not the economy or even the flag. "We don't need no stinkin' Plan B" they say...

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Bennion,

    Neil Finn & Crowded House "Help is Coming" being used to gather funds for refugees.

    http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/sep/11/help-is-coming-how-i-chose-a-forgotten-crowded-house-song-to-help-syrian-refugees

    Further shame once they find out what our quota is.

    Wellington Region • Since Nov 2006 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Bennion,

    The "rock star" economy's rock star refugee policy, etc

    Wellington Region • Since Nov 2006 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    that a large proportion of Syrian refugees are fluent in English

    I can confirm from our trip there a decade ago, fluent in English and usually several other languages as well.
    VERY friendly, VERY hospitable, incredibly diverse society and VERY accepting of that diversity.
    But we were tourists and treated like honoured guests everywhere we went.

    Syria was not a 3rd world country then.

    The dissonance with what we see now is jarring to say the least.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I 100% agree. It is absolutely absurd - NZ did the right thing then. And this, so much less in comparison, should be a no-brainer. And it probably would be except for the stirring up of paranoia about the "terrorist threat" colouring people's views these days. Also, not just Syria - all the places we should be helping with displaced people around the world.

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 701 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    Attachment

    This image is going around at present - thought it was apposite. From a tweet by @mozesislam09

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 701 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Daman Saini,

    don’t you think we should clean up our backyard first before we go solving other issues?

    No. Because that day never comes. We are never DONE fixing social issues.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    IP Nightly...

    ...you should see what happens when we discuss copyright.

    Mate!
    Don't mention the 'Scottish Thread'!

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7948 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Don’t mention the ‘Scottish Thread’!

    Is this a patent that I see before me?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10655 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Daman Saini,

    Maybe we can first help these refugees learn English so their transition into the work force is easier.

    I think that's a very good idea. So, lets start, by getting them here. Then we can teach them some English, the famously most effective way - complete language and cultural immersion. Tell me it didn't work for you?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10655 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to BenWilson,

    Why is it that everyone here is disputing my views and not going out there and helping ? I doubt commenting and proving your facts on a blog is going to do anything, people who are keyboard warriors, need to contribute, by actually helping.
    As I said earlier, I don't doubt that Syrians are fluent in English, I doubt all are.

    I was exploring the possibilities and different opinions on this topic, it was part of an assignment, I am a third year coms student. I'd like to thank everyone for their opinions and views. Great discussion. I probably have a lot to learn about this topic.

    Thanks !

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    If we convince enough people to allow more refugees here then we have helped. Conversely, if you convince people not to allow them then you haven't helped. You've blocked help. Why are you doing that?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10655 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Daman Saini,

    I was exploring the possibilities and different opinions on this topic, it was part of an assignment, I am a third year coms student. I'd like to thank everyone for their opinions and views. Great discussion. I probably have a lot to learn about this topic.

    Thanks !

    Stick around then. We're a prickly bunch round here, sometimes it works better to listen awhile. You'ld be surprised how often questions are answered before you've asked them.
    As for...

    Why is it that everyone here is disputing my views and not going out there and helping ?

    First, although its likely just a linguistic thing, "my views" are really not what we are about, we ain't no talkback show, we want to know how we come to our conclusions and that means referencing your sources, not just opinion, as a student you would know this.
    Good luck, see you around...

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Daman Saini,

    I doubt commenting and proving your facts on a blog is going to do anything, people who are keyboard warriors, need to contribute, by actually helping.

    Zing!
    Did the impudent student just diss the homework bot?
    Very cutting, glasshopper...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7948 posts Report Reply

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