Hard News: Why we thought what we thought
287 Responses
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hash tag team wrangle...
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
Other right-leaning voters? Some could move to the Conservatives and some to NZ First, but for many it’s National or nothing, which may be why polls haven’t moved drastically.
In reality Labour aren't that far to the left of traditional National but the anti Labour/Greens rhetoric of the current government seems to have frightened left leaning National voters leaving them with little option but to return the corrupt version to the front benches. I can't help thinking this was a deliberate ploy but the ineptitude shown recently makes me doubt that.
If traditional Nat supporters would listen to Labours policies we might actually see some change in the polling, one would hope, on the day, that the Nats fan base will recognise that this government must go. Time for a clear out. -
izogi, in reply to
So if a right-leaning voter such at Matthew Hooten were to defect from National, where’s he going to go?
To me this is why it’s not enough just to investigate and prosecute those [allegedly] involved, or to tell everyone to vote them out. Investigating stuff that's already happened won't necessarily improve what happens in the future, and voters need to weigh too many conflicting things to always be able to prioritise something like integrity.
We should be able to vote based on policy, without being concerned that those being elected might not actually adhere to the law once they’re elevated to the top of the accountability chain.
There could be plenty of policy to discuss about this, but so far there’s been little if anything from any party on how they might actually improve the accountability of what happens in Ministerial offices, and lessen the political conflicts of interest, no matter who’s in office at any given time.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
the anti Labour/Greens rhetoric
The way I have been hearing it from my relatives is , they HAVE to vote National to avoid The Greens, who have been successfully tarred as wanting to drive us all back to the stone age. The logic is that a vote for Labour is a vote for The Greens.
And yes I find that logic absurd too.
That's why I really really want The Greens to become much stronger on evidence based policy, it takes away the "fear of loonies" that is "forcing" the reasonable center voters to vote National.
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Speaking of things hootin', if Hooton was not embellishing, the PM's absorbing of CERA is amusing. No need to pick up the phone to start an argument then. I feel a Monty Python sketch coming on...
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Phil Wallington, in reply to
Hi Nick... As ever, I bow to your legal expertise. Was discussing same with a recently elevated QC this morning and he believes that Odgers won't even want to come back to NZ anytime. I suspect she will slink off to the UK and do a spot of legal hackery, maybe conveyancing. I would personally recommend Belfast as a good place to start. Her talents might be able to facilitate some real estate deals in Falls Road or the delightful suburb of Ardoyne.
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Sacha, in reply to
The Greens seem to already have plenty of evidence-based policy – just not perhaps in the area you want it. They’re constantly smeared by the right as being economically ‘loony’ when they’ve had a coherent policy in that dimension for years now. I doubt adopting rationalist science positions will fix their reputation.
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izogi, in reply to
That’s why I really really want The Greens to become much stronger on evidence based policy, it takes away the “fear of loonies” that is “forcing” the reasonable center voters to vote National.
I was dismayed when ACT’s was given Ministerial posts, for similar reasons. In my mind it’s one of the looniest parties to have been elected to parliament, even if its general looniness changes each election according to who buys the shelf corpo^H^H^H^H^Hparty in any given election for its voter support. But the world still hasn’t ended, despite encounters with the likes of Rodney Hide, even if some things have been messed up along the way IMHO.
I was mildly disappointed to see the Greens’ Love NZ campaign. Not that I wouldn’t expect it to have that policy, but I thought that people who might be affected by that type of policy would already be fully familiar with the Greens. It could have made things more interesting to see the GP pro-actively pushing itself into economic debates and stuff as its main line. The standard claim from National is that embarasses itself when it tries because “we’re the party for good economic policy and the Greens are loony dope-smoking stone-aged environmentalists”, or something like that, but it needs to prove otherwise.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
It’s a shame people get stuck on that. Like Rogernomics ( although completely different ) really . Douglas and Prebble . They went on to become Act. But Labour wears the badge.
Perhaps Labour could play on that to the right wing.
"Labour, the party that bought you free market economics and user pays" -
oga, in reply to
Thank you, Bart. I suspect that part of the problem with the New Zealand electorate is that the labels that political parties wear don't quite stick on properly. I always felt that National and Labour were too similar in their policy base. I assumed that they were more right leaning than left leaning, but your clarification based on world terms makes a lot of sense.
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tussock, in reply to
Is it just me, or is my perception of Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct?
http://politicalcompass.org/nz2014
That's a long-term international view. It's the doohicky that one news ripped off, and then shifted National to the middle of. It rates the policies they intend to implement.
As it notes, the TPPA signed under the next National government will likely kill off ACC and Pharmac, while giving various US senators veto rights over our future lawmaking processes. It's a bit of a silent runner, but the Greens and Labour have both said it needs made public before signing, because they haven't seen it (other than the leaks, no doubt).
Oh, someone noted our "left" is left of the US, which is true, because the US left is in the same damn place as their right. -
Lindsay Vette, in reply to
Oh, someone noted our “left” is left of the US, which is true, because the US left is in the same damn place as their right.
Exactly, although Republicans persist in labelling Democrats as pinko liberalists hell-bent on introducing some radical form of socialism, next stop the gulag for all “right” thinking gun-toting god-fearing citizens.
The NZ right still thinks in FPP terms about minor parties despite National’s reliance on them to form every MMP government. Green voters and their political representatives are “tree huggers” hell-bent on introducing some radical form of socialism, next stop the gulag for all “right” thinking gun-toting god-fearing citizens.
The reality is that the dominant party in a coalition is going to have the biggest say in what policies get implemented, with the minor parties having their input and moderation on the extent of each policy.
While the mechanism of government and the parties understand how MMP works, there’s still a lot of ignorance out there, largely due to most voters’ unwillingness to really understand what’s happening in government, and spend more than a week or so every three years thinking about politics. Apathy has more political supporters than most of the parties.
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
I think the traditional threat of "we know where yer live" is regarded as unlawyerly, even in Belfast.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
already have plenty of evidence-based policy
Yup I know, that’s why I said strongER.
Whereas for National I would have said get ANY evidence based policy.
But I also think they need to make a thing of it across the board.
eg Raising minimum wage because data from all these countries shows it improves quality of life in the whole society overall. -
Bart Janssen, in reply to
kill off ACC and Pharmac
Most New Zealander's have NO IDEA how valuable both of these organisations are. They have combined to make it possible to run a first world health system on a third world budget.
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Trevor Nicholls, in reply to
I think the traditional threat of "we know where yer live" is regarded as unlawyerly
So farewell, Cactus Kate
"Left wing c***s", that was your catchphrase
Now you have left yourself, be careful you don't get caught -
Everyone seems to accept that the Maori Party are firmly tucked into National's back pocket come hell or high water. Is this a solidly based perception or would continuing revelations unglue them from their colonial masters?
Turiana is leaving so there goes the Maori Party share of the Labour/Maori dislike. Helen's been long gone from Labour so altho Flavell has always struck me as a tory at heart, he must have some realpolitik in him.
It strikes me that grabbing undertakings from Cunliffe re whanau-ora would be a handy way of providing a bridge from a collapsing tent into the next big thing.I have no doubt that should the correct opportunity present the natz will jump at the chance of blaming as much as they can on 'corrupt Maori culture' or whatever, rather than take a hit themselves so it makes sense for Flavell to jump before he gets shit on.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Everyone seems to accept that the Maori Party are firmly tucked into National’s back pocket come hell or high water. Is this a solidly based perception or would continuing revelations unglue them from their colonial masters?
The Native Affairs polls -- which consistently show that Maori electorate voters would strongly prefer the Maori Party to go with Labour if there is a choice will presumably not be lost on them.
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nzlemming, in reply to
The Greens seem to already have plenty of evidence-based policy – just not perhaps in the area you want it. They’re constantly smeared by the right as being economically ‘loony’ when they’ve had a coherent policy in that dimension for years now. I doubt adopting rationalist science positions will fix their reputation.
This.
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mccx, in reply to
Both National and Labour are center left parties in the world sense and certainly in comparison to anything in the US.
I don’t know how one might make sense of the political orientation of parties globally, but among western democracies I would dispute that National would be to the left of the mid-point. And are you saying that National is left of the Democrats in the US? The US systems means there’s ideological breadth within the two parties, but I imagine that if National enacted the policies they believe in they would be well to the right of the Democrats.
We certainly have nothing in New Zealand that would satisfy a true left wing voter.
How do the Greens not qualify? Among other English speaking countries the only party that's arguably more left is Canada's NDP.
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Matthew Hooton, in reply to
Not at all Paul. I made it public on Facebook so fair game for anyone in a sense, although disappointed the PM appeared to bring it up in his press conference - just a little higher profile than I expected! - which is why I did a brief press statement on it.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Not at all Paul. I made it public on Facebook so fair game for anyone in a sense, although disappointed the PM appeared to bring it up in his press conference – just a little higher profile than I expected! – which is why I did a brief press statement on it.
Best wishes with it, Matthew.
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Joe Wylie, in reply to
“personal statement from Matthew Hooten”
ahem – Hooton
“personal statement from Matthew Hooton”
in the interests of posterity…I think my confusion might have arisen from a false memory of an imaginary one-hit wonder.
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nzlemming, in reply to
Not at all Paul. I made it public on Facebook so fair game for anyone in a sense
Can we now say you have a dry wit?
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Can we now say you have a dry wit?
:) Plus I'll add seeing as others are, Matthew your life is your business and I have no judgement of that but I have to say I was just deeply disappointed to hear a man with such a voice and opinion would let a Party dictate to you how to vote and that you see fit to forgive the National Party that has treated the country ,it's laws and it's people with such little regard, but, your vote is yours and so be it.
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