Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Why we thought what we thought

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  • Russell Brown, in reply to Greg Dawson,

    Agreed, the fb leaks are a new front unsupported by Hagers book – need someone to tell us whether we can just ignore all the fb ones as forgeries, or if it really is as bad as they make it out.

    No – this is a very widespread misconception. The conversation is quoted in Hager’s book, on page 46. It’s noted as “Cameron Slater, Facebook messaging to and from Judith Collins, 11 September 2011.”

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22825 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Meyers,

    Just read the personal statement from Matthew Hooten.

    It reads a bit like an example of Stockholm Syndrome. National and Act have both been naughty but he's voting for them anyway.

    Although it got me thinking: it feels like there just aren't enough credible centre-right parties around. If I had wanted to cast a blue vote but decide that National is too tarnished by these allegations, what other options are there? Winston First? The Peter Dunne Party? Conservatives? None of those are particularly credible either.

    So if a right-leaning voter such at Matthew Hooten were to defect from National, where's he going to go? He's not likely to cross the fence to Labour or the Greens, is he?

    Wellington • Since May 2014 • 56 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Michael Meyers,

    So if a right-leaning voter such at Matthew Hooten were to defect from National, where’s he going to go? He’s not likely to cross the fence to Labour or the Greens, is he?

    When Mark Sainsbury asked Hooten why he'd be voting National despite his having just clobbered Michelle Boag with his insistence that Key was corrupt, Hooten went all hand on heart about it coming down to the economy.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • mccx, in reply to Michael Meyers,

    Hooten specifically? It's either National or ACT. As he says, his ideological preferences outweigh Dirty Politics and related issues.

    Other right-leaning voters? Some could move to the Conservatives and some to NZ First, but for many it's National or nothing, which may be why polls haven't moved drastically.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2012 • 36 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    "personal statement from Matthew Hooten"
    ahem - Hooton
    "personal statement from Matthew Hooton"
    in the interests of posterity...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7943 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Meyers, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    The economy thing annoys me. National has claimed credit for all the good things in the past 6 years, blamed all the bad things on the GFC, and conveniently everything before the 2008 election was Labour's fault rather than the GFC. I'm surprised they have got away with that spin.

    I'm not saying that National have handled the economy badly but it feels like any muppet could've take the NZ economy out of recession following global financial crisis.

    Wellington • Since May 2014 • 56 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Hooton

    Thank you.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Meyers, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Hooton ahem... oops. Won't get that one wrong again.

    Wellington • Since May 2014 • 56 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Michael Meyers,

    The economy thing annoys me. ...
    I’m not saying that National have handled the economy badly but it feels like any muppet could’ve take the NZ economy out of recession following global financial crisis.

    Hooton et al will quote figures when it suits, but the persistent mantra, whether it's him, Boag, or Odgers, is lower taxes. The orthodoxy seems to be straight from the "deficits don't matter" 90s Bush era. Bugger the debt, it's lower taxes, and the sacrosanct nature of the grammar zone.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Angela Hart, in reply to Michael Meyers,

    I'm not saying that National have handled the economy badly but

    I can't get over the frequent references to the state Labour left the economy in when we've gone from paying down debt and being indebted to the tune of (I haven't checked exactly) something like 10 billion, to constantly borrowing and owing about 60 billion. How is that good handling of the economy when there hasn't been employment growth either? Someone please correct my figures if they are badly out.

    Christchurch • Since Apr 2014 • 614 posts Report Reply

  • bob daktari,

    I think people need to say national have done a terrible job of managing the economy - lets not beat about the bush or rely on a natural disaster to make the books look better than they would

    auckland • Since Dec 2006 • 540 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Russell Brown,

    No – this is a very widespread misconception. The conversation is quoted in Hager’s book, on page 46. It’s noted as “Cameron Slater, Facebook messaging to and from Judith Collins, 11 September 2011.”

    Correct, and the timestamp information is important if you remember that FB stamps everything with UTC which is 11-13 hours different (depending on BST and DST)

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2932 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Michael Meyers,

    Although it got me thinking: it feels like there just aren’t enough credible centre-right parties around.

    I think the problem is more that there aren't any credible far right parties. So National is actually stuck there, and it's not to their advantage. It's hard to even claim to be center right when there is only one crooked wingnut to the right of you, and between you and the center left are 3 other parties.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • Greg Dawson, in reply to Russell Brown,

    No – this is a very widespread misconception. The conversation is quoted in Hager’s book, on page 46. It’s noted as “Cameron Slater, Facebook messaging to and from Judith Collins, 11 September 2011.”

    Ah, thankyou for clarifying. Also to nzlemming for telling me its UTC not localised time :)

    I’m not going to start throwing stones at people messaging each other in their lunch breaks, on account of my silica based residence.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 294 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Oh woops ,guess I didn't care enough. Hoot on

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Michael Meyers,

    The economy thing annoys me

    Peter Lyons at the Harold puts things in perspective.

    ETA The comments section suggests some people really don't understand satire or have a sense of humour.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • oga, in reply to BenWilson,

    Is it just me, or is my perception of Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct? I don't think Labour does enough lefty stuff to be considered a centre-left party. I guess my impressions are still tainted by Rogernomics.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 47 posts Report Reply

  • Roger Lacey, in reply to Michael Meyers,

    Hooton ahem… oops. Won’t get that one wrong again.

    Got to spell it correctly or it won't come up when they search the metadata.

    Whatakataka Bay Surf Club… • Since Apr 2008 • 148 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams, in reply to oga,

    I don’t think Labour does enough lefty stuff to be considered a centre-left party. I guess my impressions are still tainted by Rogernomics.

    I don't know where you fit a capital gains tax, for instance, into that perspective?

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to oga,

    Is it just me, or is my perception of Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct? I don’t think Labour does enough lefty stuff to be considered a centre-left party. I guess my impressions are still tainted by Rogernomics.

    Yeah, Labour lurched across to the right in the 80’s because fiscal!emergency, and some have never forgiven them for it (and never will). It was because Lange stopped for the “cup of tea” that Douglas and Prebble spun out to form ACT (and the irony of ACT emerging from Labour must have MJ Savage doing rotisserie impressions) but they weren’t the only Members who thought the party needed to do this. This was “dry economic theory” as in don’t water the crop, let it make its own way and the wealth will trickle down. Yeah, right.

    Through the Clark government, many of the “economic dry’s” like Goff and King still held a lot of influence and the market approach, diluted but still present, was still the order of government. Key inherited and incredibly deregulated economy which he’s proceeded to stripmine. With restructure within the Labour party, especially around democratic decision-making and candidate/leader selection, the balance appears to be swinging back to a more left approach, though the proof of the pudding will be in the eating ;-)

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2932 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to oga,

    Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct?

    Personally I'm odd, because I don't look at left ,right centre. I see Labour as working class, middle of the road so their roots are still intact. I see Greens advertising all over the Ponse and Herne Bay so I suspect they are heading to target the middle class with their roots still intact. I see IMP as addressing the disenfranchised as a target. For me, I'd love 3 votes because what a wonderful force all of these Parties could make. They cover all bases, i.e most of the NZ population. If only peeps could get away from it being about them and them only, the force would be with us.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Walter Nicholls, in reply to Angela Hart,

    we’ve gone from paying down debt and being indebted to the tune of (I haven’t checked exactly) something like 10 billion, to constantly borrowing and owing about 60 billion.

    Perhaps someone clever than me can try and put this into perspective. Annual revenue of NZ Government is about $60 billion. - but that doesn't translate easily into a personal analogy, as nearly all "homeowners" cope with the idea of owing several times their annual income. They would expect not to have to sell off the pantry to service the mortgage, though.

    My favourite (if that's the word) bugbear is this one: Govt operating deficit bigger than expected as tax take lags - did they really not expect the tax income to drop, given that National have consistently dropped tax rates (3 times) since taking power in 2008?
    I'd really, really like to see a graph comparing fiscal forecasts with actuals over the last 10 years Keith Ng does this kind of thing extremely well.
    Don't even get me started on the broken window fallacy in Chch.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Jul 2008 • 42 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Russell Brown,

    No – this is a very widespread misconception. The conversation is quoted in Hager’s book, on page 46. It’s noted as “Cameron Slater, Facebook messaging to and from Judith Collins, 11 September 2011.”

    Except Greg O'Connor's name is redacted in the book and he is only referred to as [a police source].

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think O'Connor would be doing anything illegal if he had leaked Police video evidence to Slater, even if the motivation and morality involved is questionable. It's certainly not a good look for the cops to be cosying up to a vile blogger to discredit the victims of the Urewera raids after charges against them had been dropped. But it's much worse for the Minister of Police to be actively encouraging that sort of behaviour.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1434 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    With restructure within the Labour party, especially around democratic decision-making and candidate/leader selection, the balance appears to be swinging back to a more left approach, though the proof of the pudding will be in the eating ;-)

    It think so, in contrast with what we have. And they don’t stand a shit show of ever governing alone again, IMO, because they squandered there reputation over the foreshore and seabed exhibition of redneck – deny Maori there day in court because the 'mainstream New Zealanders’ belief that what’s mine is mine and what’s there’s is also mine, lets be honest, racism.

    It’s going to be interesting to see the Labour/Greens after this election – which in reality are looking like being coalition partners, and the Greens might one day be the larger party.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4411 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to oga,

    is my perception of Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct?

    No.

    Or more accurately not in world terms. Seriously ACT might just get time of day as right wing in the US but even they would be slammed for some of their policies.

    Both National and Labour are center left parties in the world sense and certainly in comparison to anything in the US. And that reflects New Zealand as a whole, which is fundamentally socialist, despite what some few right wing loonies might try and claim.

    We certainly have nothing in New Zealand that would satisfy a true left wing voter. Good grief even under Labour we still had some of the lowest taxation in the developed world.

    The (biggest) problem I have with National is that mostly their policies are pure ideology from the 70s, trickle down economics, management knows best and greed is good. There is forty years of political and economic science to which they seem oblivious. But even with those dumbass policies they still retain public health, public education, national superanuation and social welfare all of which would be abhorrent to any Republican in the US and pretty scary for many Democrats.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4458 posts Report Reply

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