Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: It is your right and duty to vote

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  • pollywog,

    sweet...settled then.

    we'll use my flag and i'll imbue it with meaning about white muthafuckas, waves of settlement, blood spilt, lives lost, southern crossed stars, green land/blue skies=teal, sovereignty and colonialism

    ...all in favour say Ae:)

    see, that wasn't so hard was it ?

    somewhere else • Since Dec 2009 • 152 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    see, that wasn't so hard was it ?

    You up for a crack at a new anthem next?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    Hah, if you think talkback land is grumbling over this flag issue, just wait until Bill English turns the screws with a black budget in 2010 whilst at the same time doling out vast sums of taxpayer money to unaccountable Maori welfare organisations run, funnily enough, by the same Iwi elites who have just made a nice fat taxpayer-funded profit with their ETS rort.


    National and the Iwi Elite Party, a match made in fat cat heaven.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2217 posts Report Reply

  • Mikaere Curtis,

    And No Right Turn is all, like, anyone who's not down with this is probably a racist. Sigh ..

    I disagree. The fundamental argument being played out is around whether this is the right flag to choose. They seems broad agreement that a flag is a good idea, but which one ?

    I/S was talking about the concept of flying a flag which symbolises Maori identity. Anyone who clings to the notion that we only need one flag is at odds with our bi-cultural future.

    Paul Moon is correct, the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is pretty vague. I'm sure there are plenty of different understandings of what Tino Rangatiratanga means in the current context.

    The problem that the 1835 United Tribes flag has is that it is not representative of all tribes.

    Maybe we need a proper approach to deciding on what a Maori flag needs to be, and perhaps at the end it will be Tino Rangatiratanga, or maybe another design will emerge.

    In any case, it's a Good Thing to fly an alternative to the NZ flag, because, as I/S says, it makes a very positive statement about where we are headed.

    Oh yes you can; more specifically, I can; and I will: it is ghastly. It is the sort of pattern one might find on the curtains of a provincial community hall. It is a difficult design to repeat, and so has spawned many clumsy imitations, particularly in Grey Lynn. Its colours are unfortunate, given their use in 20th Century Europe.

    In the age of digital image reproduction, I don't think a complicated design is much of an issue. As for unfortunate colours, since when were Maori responsible for European warfare ? Europeans don't have a mortgage on colour, and if they have a problem with their violence in the 20th century, they need to address that themselves.

    Tamaki Makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 528 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Maybe we need a proper approach to deciding on what a Maori flag needs to be, and perhaps at the end it will be Tino Rangatiratanga, or maybe another design will emerge.

    I'd like to hear speeches made in the House, and see a vote on something written-down -- rather than having it decided (by Key's own telling) in "five minutes" at a Cabinet meeting.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Europeans don't have a mortgage on colour,

    Ok, so let's have a black and white one. Yes, chequered even, y'know kinda a "we are all winners" flag. :)
    Something like this?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    I/S was talking about the concept of flying a flag which symbolises Maori identity. Anyone who clings to the notion that we only need one flag is at odds with our bi-cultural future.

    Yeah, see, that goes down like a cup of cold sick with a lot of people. In particular, what does it mean to have more than one flag? How much right do non-Maori have in determining this other flag? How much right do Maori have to determine the non-Maori flag? etc. etc.

    These are things that we should be having proper debate about, not just John Key saying yeah do it.

    (Merely flying that flag on Waitangi Day is well, why not? But a lot of the other stuff, eh.)

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    Ok, so let's have a black and white one. Yes, chequered even, y'know kinda a "we are all winners" flag. :)

    Cool. It'll look great on this ;-)

    What? Too much? Still, how could I resist?

    And so it isn't a totally nugatory post;

    I'd like to hear speeches made in the House, and see a vote on something written-down -- rather than having it decided (by Key's own telling) in "five minutes" at a Cabinet meeting.

    What he said.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Yes what he said.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Personally I would like to try each flag on first to see if I look fat in it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • pollywog,

    oooh nice ride recordari...

    You up for a crack at a new anthem next?

    yeah i'd ditch the words to start with and just make it a dubstep instrumental cos i mean what the fuck is pacific's triple star and why does it need guarding ?

    i wonder what uncle winnie's got to say about te flag ?..i dont think he'll want to upset his grey power fanbase so he'll come out swinging for the ol diggers who died for the yadda yadda yadda...he's such a back asswards looking cunt that i dont think we've seen the last of

    so what do you get when you cross houndstooth with a space invader and a map of NZ ?

    http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8211/spacetoothnz.jpg

    :)

    somewhere else • Since Dec 2009 • 152 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    Personally I would like to try each flag on first to see if I look fat in it.

    Nothing. I just wanted to repeat it and laugh some more. And in that case chequered is probably out.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    i mean what the fuck is pacific's triple star and why does it need guarding ?

    I'm sure we've talked about this before, but I've always been tickled by 'guide her in the nations' van' (ignoring that it's short for 'vanguard' and glossing over that errant apostrophe). My husband insists that the nation's van would be a Toyota Hi-Ace because they are *everywhere* (seriously, start counting them and be amazed). I assume a more traditional New Zealand national van would be a Kombi...

    In any case, we don't need God to guide us in the van any more. We have GPS nowadays.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Ben.Shirmer,

    In any case, we don't need God to guide us in the van any more. We have GPS nowadays.

    Pray it doesn't send you down a cliff...:)

    Welly • Since Nov 2009 • 46 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    'm sure we've talked about this before, but I've always been tickled by 'guide her in the nations' van'

    Ooooh, the full version. I've only ever seen that in print, does it ever get sung as well?
    I like to think of us bundling along in a Bongo...

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Mikaere Curtis,

    __I/S was talking about the concept of flying a flag which symbolises Maori identity. Anyone who clings to the notion that we only need one flag is at odds with our bi-cultural future.__

    Yeah, see, that goes down like a cup of cold sick with a lot of people. In particular, what does it mean to have more than one flag?

    Well, if our current flag was congnisant of Maori existence, then perhaps you would have a point. But it's not, it is an artefact of colonialism. So, consonant with bi-culturalism, it is easier to introduce another flag than to attempt to replace the existing one. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get rid of the Union Jack and replace it with one that is not beholden to our colonial dominionship. But adding a Maori-symbolic flag is additive - it does not diminish the current flag.

    How much right do non-Maori have in determining this other flag? How much right do Maori have to determine the non-Maori flag? etc. etc.

    In a bi-cultural approach, perhaps those that consider themselves Maori could choose the Maori flag and those that consider themselves non-Maori could choose the non-Maori flag ? I'm with Mike Smith on this: anyone can consider themselves Maori if that is how they feel; being able to whakapapa to any specific hapu is geneological, so you can be Maori without possession any specific whakapapa. In terms of choosing a flag, I'm OK with people deciding which flag they best represents them and then committing to choosing that one flag (i.e. can't vote for both).

    I'd like to hear speeches made in the House, and see a vote on something written-down -- rather than having it decided (by Key's own telling) in "five minutes" at a Cabinet meeting.

    Quite. I think Key gauged the issue on the number of media releases that came out over the last Waitangi Day timeframe. Not many. But he's upped the ante with his endorsement of a specific flag, and was always going to cop significant criticism over this. Really, the argument should be about how we can determine a flag that complements the existing Crown-oriented flag.

    Still, I am hopeful that this debate serves to move things forward, at least, if nothing else, in terms of identifying that the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is not tino pai rawa atu ki nga iwa katoa.
    [Translation: not all iwi think it's awesome]

    Tamaki Makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 528 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Has anyone mentioned the strange Government decision to stop the 'It's not OK' campaign? Apparently, we are domestically peaceful now.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3227 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    'guide her in the nations' van'

    Always seemed like a thinly veiled sexual reference to me ... on the other hand:

    From dissension, envy, hate,
    And corruption guard our State,
    Make our country good and great,

    seems like just the right thing to have in a national anthem.

    However I've always been partial to the 70s greeny version:

    Way back up in Cromwell gorge
    Tons of co-on-cre-ete they-ey wi-ill forge
    All our farmland they will drown
    Right back up to Albert Town
    Flood the Wilkins, Dam the-e Reese
    Will their pla-a-ni-ing e-ever-er cease
    We must know where danger lurks
    Vandals of the Public Works

    First the valleys, then the-e creeks
    Next they'll flood our fla-a-mi-ing peaks
    While for Auckland power abounds
    Our South Island slowly drowns.
    Climbers of the Alps unite
    For our snow we now must fight
    Keep it for our pleasure now
    Not for making bloody power.

    Benmore, Roxburgh, Avie-e-more
    Manapouri, how-w ma-a-ny more
    Will our trees and forests last
    When the waters top the Haast.
    Halt Kawarau's mighty drop
    Arawata they-ey mu-ust stop
    When they reach Aspiring's top
    God defend New Zealand!!

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    On the other hand there are alternate options for national anthems:

    So if things are looking really bad
    you're thinking of givin' it away
    Remember New Zealand's a cracker
    and I reckon come what may
    If things get appallingly bad
    and we all get atrociously poor
    If we stand in the queue with our hats on
    we can borrow a few million more
    We don't know how lucky we are, mate
    We don't know how lucky we are

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • st ephen,

    Aren't all Hiaces white?

    I believe our nation's van should be something more like this.

    Or this.

    dunedin • Since Jul 2008 • 254 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    On the other hand there are alternate options for national anthems:

    That will always be the true anthem to me.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • James Francis,

    On the other hand there are alternate options for national anthems

    Mungo MacCallum wrote a nice little essay about the furore Australia went through in 1975 when it adopted Advance Australia Fair

    One of the problems from aspiring writers back in 1975 was that there are so few rhymes to 'Australia'; the only obvious one is 'failure', which is clearly inappropriate. But this is a cop-out as the following modest effort shows:

    'Prevail Australia!
    We'll not derail ya
    As long as there's azalea to espalier.
    So inter alia
    Unveil yer dahlia
    All hail yer gay regalia our Australia

    (p226, The Best Australian Essays 2001)

    Catchy, patriotic, politically correct and environmentally sound. What more could you want?

    St John's, Newfoundland • Since Nov 2006 • 121 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    It's not like there's a lot of things that rhyme with "Zealand" .... we're generally short of native eland which leaves them out and sort of leaves us stuck with double words where the second is 'land' - "wee land", "free land", "flea land", etc and word play that leaves an 'and' at the end of a line: "... eel and", "... surreal and" which gets old fast

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    And No Right Turn is all, like, anyone who's not down with this is probably a racist. Sigh ..

    Well, old and monocultural - unlike modern New Zealand. I see this (and the noise around it being whipped up by Audrey Young) as being a symptom of intergenerational cultural change. The interesting bit politically is that National, which has traditionally backed the old, is now backing the young - Key has an eye on the future of his party, and its relevance in a multicultural New Zealand (that, and he's a shiny city boy, rather than the usual dead farmer, and so has a very different outlook on life from their traditional base).

    As for the disagreement among Maori, KiwiPolitico has a good post on what that's about. But Maori were left to decide, there was a consultative process, and while there are loud objections from the rival UCT camp (who have their own hegemonic project), the tino rangitiratanga flag was widely supported.

    Finally, I don't see how flying a second flag diminishes anyone in any way. Its not official (yet...), its not replacing our wretched colonial relic (sadly), and the government is not kicking your door in and forcing you to fly it. If you don't like it, you can always not fly one. Or, you can buy one and burn it - a freedom we do not enjoy with the current flag.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    re: rhymes, overrated. re: flags, same fabric as the emperor's new clothes would fit nicely.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

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