Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: It is your right and duty to vote

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  • Gareth Ward,

    Another way of looking at that is that you're saying they're Maori but their views don't count and cannot be accorded any good faith. Seems a bit patronising.

    Excuse me? You do such a good job of writing your own words, I'd ask that you don't put completely incorrect and pretty damn offensive ones in my mouth thanks.

    I don't care what their ethnic background, I care that as far as I can tell they are spinning the useful divisive line of their political party. Perhaps they're not, but I'd rather get the impression from a broader group of Maori than simply a partisan team.
    We finally get something that if looked at positively is a damn good thing IMO and yet it seems the Opposition is opposing it because hey that's all we know how to do at the moment.

    As I said, I'll let Maori as a whole let their true feelings be known on which flag to fly and not the political spin - if this 80% support of the flag at hui was a complete fabrication then we'll begin to hear about it from a number of areas I suspect, not just the political Opposition.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    Man, that's really killed my buzz - have to go get a positive hit off the Archives thread =)

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    We finally get something that if looked at positively is a damn good thing IMO and yet it seems the Opposition is opposing it because hey that's all we know how to do at the moment.

    But you seem to see a wholly positive view as the only acceptable one -- you're running the risk of negating the voices of people who have a real stake in the matter.

    Kingi Taurua might be a grumpy bugger, but he does speak for Te Tii marae and has just as much right to be heard as Pita Sharples does, especially when it comes to Waitangi Day. Tau Henare clearly has some misgivings over the choice, and Dover Samuels is unhappy for reasons that probably have more to do with Ngapuhi business than Labour business.

    You don't have the right to negate their views just so you can have your happy ending.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    As I said, I'll let Maori as a whole let their true feelings be known on which flag to fly and not the political spin - if this 80% support of the flag at hui was a complete fabrication then we'll begin to hear about it from a number of areas I suspect, not just the political Opposition.

    Sharples was referring to these hui run by Te Puni Kokiri as part of what looks to me like a serious consultation process, and if Shane Jones is seriously alleging that the political independence of the civil service has been compromised then I'd like some evidence on the table. Because, you know, that's actually damn serious shit.

    I really do hope that specific allegation from Jones is going to be followed up -- and he's actually got some facts on his side.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    Simply from a design perspective you can't deny the beauty of the Tino Rangatiratanga flag.

    Oh yes you can; more specifically, I can; and I will: it is ghastly. It is the sort of pattern one might find on the curtains of a provincial community hall. It is a difficult design to repeat, and so has spawned many clumsy imitations, particularly in Grey Lynn. Its colours are unfortunate, given their use in 20th Century Europe.

    I could go on, at some length.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    I'm either not making myself clear, or I have timing issues - I'm not looking for a "happy ending", I've said a number of times that I'll let Maori as a whole, through whatever voice they have, say if it's acceptable or not. I have never once made a claim as to the acceptable view or otherwise. I'm simply doing what you and most commentators here do most days - taking negative claims made by a political party with a pretty hefty grain of salt.

    Given the recent behaviour of the Labour party, I will not take their spokesperson's soundbites as representative of that voice - they have proven a pretty serious lack of principle and love for populist jabs that I can't take their view as the correct one by default. That's not negating the view they represent, it's negating their reputation to be the sole voice of truth on such a view.

    And I was referring solely to Labour commentary; Kingi Taurua and Tau Henare are potentially a different matter and a good start at trying to understand the overarching view of Maori (where that's possible). That needs to be tinged with the fact that they are only two voices and the well-known tendency of certain media to establish a storyline and then print the quotes that match, but if it becomes genuinely clear that this is all a Maori Party beatup that is causing serious strife within Maoridom then I'll be against it to.

    But yes, my take on it for now is that the claims of dissent, tokenism and "flying a political flag only" are political in their own nature. The Labour Party holds little credibility with me these days as to the genuine principled backing of their press releases. And if we're going to piss all over the flying of "a" Maori flag alongside that of the Crown on Waitangi Day then we better be damn sure we should be.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    it is ghastly

    Yeah, I agree, not a big fan of the design. But that ain't my call really!
    (Middle-class white man, aka the Families Commission defence)

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And I was referring solely to Labour commentary; Kingi Taurua and Tau Henare are potentially a different matter and a good start at trying to understand the overarching view of Maori (where that's possible). That needs to be tinged with the fact that they are only two voices and the well-known tendency of certain media to establish a storyline and then print the quotes that match, but if it becomes genuinely clear that this is all a Maori Party beatup that is causing serious strife within Maoridom then I'll be against it to.

    I don't think it's a matter of "serious strife", but both Key and Sharples have admitted that opinion is divided in Maoridom.

    And I actually don't think Jones' comments were solely, or even mostly, a Labour political tactic. He clearly didn't refer to Goff in advance, because Goff was off-message and telling journalists he wasn't really bothered this morning.

    The flag carries a lot of baggage up north, where Samuels and Jones are from. It's not hard to see why the Te Tii people would get bloody antsy about it being associated with Waitangi Day.

    I like the idea of Treaty partner flags flying side by side on the national day, but if the the flag is going to be given de facto statutory meaning, I'd much rather see some kind of statutory process make it so.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Andre Alessi,

    I really disagree. I think it's elevant to ask a spokesman for Te Tii marae about a flag for Waitangi Day, even if his answer involves a good deal of spluttering. Ditto for Maori MPs in parties other than the Maori Party, including the Prime Minister's own party.

    Why on earth should they not have a say? The Maori Party are not the only spokespeople for Maori interests.

    I can't say I disagree on your general point at all, and I think I phrased myself badly there. I thought about adding a note saying that my comment wasn't passing judgement on the specific people who had been asked their opinion. However, I do think there's a problem generally with how spokespeople are picked by journalists based on what responses said journalists want to print.

    It's not an issue that's specific to Maori issues reporting, but because of how relatively recently mainstream awareness has developed that Maori aren't a homogeneous group politically, it's something that I'm probably slightly oversensitive about. I think that simply picking up the phone and talking to one or two people who are likely to give different answers on the same issue (based on the journalist's perception of what part they play in the discourse) does a disservice to the nuances of the issues at stake.

    This was probably a bad example for me to spit the dummy on, though, as the spokespeople chosen are likely about as good as anyone could find on short notice (barring coming up with a more compelling spokesperson for young, urban/iwi-less Maori.)

    Oddly enough, I've long felt I'd like more in the news about iwi politics, conflict and all. It's such an important part of the cultural and political makeup of the country, but we learn so little about it from the news media.

    Why isn't someone telling me why Kingi Taurua and Hone Harawira are so offside with each other, for example? What's the background? What's behind Tau Henare's diffidence?

    Absolutely. I'm trying hard not to veer into stage one sociology territory here, but really, the "Other-ing" of Maori (who are an integral part of our nation, after all) has gone hand-in-hand with an attempt to treat Maori political opinion as monolithic (and therefore frightening to Pakeha because it has no room for reconciliation or compromise.)

    Reporting these disputes and discussions in more detail is absolutely essential, not just because Maori politics deserves more attention inherently, but because it provides an opportunity to educate Pakeha about the variety of Maori opinions, needs, wants, preferences, etc That's the only way to counteract the talkback mentality of "All Maori want a free lunch and probably the opportinity to eat your children". Of course, it's not the magic bullet that will end racism forever, but it's another crack in the wall.

    And I would note that I've been wary about the flag on the bridge on other occasions when t's come up, on the same basis: who and what does the flag represent? Has any iwi ever flown the flag on its own account? If it's going to represent a sovereign people, shouldn't there be a bit more constitutional process in saying so?

    I don't think that those concerns are unreasonable, but I do think it's interesting what they say about where we're at right now: I'm sure that whoever proposed to use the TTR flag thought that they were just going along with a nice, essentially lightweight gesture about how we New Zealanders recognise the place of Maori in our national life, and didn't think about or wasn't aware of the tensions around exactly who or what the flag represents.

    Maybe I'm becoming more easily impressed in my old age, but I like the fact that there's a debate about the flag being made public at all. I don't think one flag can ever represent all Maori, but I'm pleasantly surprised that those concerns are making it into the national media instead of being dismissed as the knee-jerk complaints of "Maori radicals".

    (And I guess with that, I've completely invalidated my original complaint. I think it might be time for a beer.)

    Edit: Actually, that beer can wait, I've just found out I'm in to the closed beta for Star Trek Online. My day is made. :)

    Devonport, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 864 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    it is ghastly
    Yeah, I agree, not a big fan of the design. But that ain't my call really!

    Exactly how I feel, don't like it, not comfortable that I can't have a say in what would be great for all New Zealand. Really sad that it has left an impression of, one for them and one for us. I cant get behind that. Separatism needn't be a reason to fly flags together, doesn't make sense to me. Could we have some unity for a flag for all? At least our historical one and say a more modern inclusive one?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • James W,

    it is ghastly. It is the sort of pattern one might find on the curtains of a provincial community hall.

    Provincial community halls are well-known havens of great design.

    It is a difficult design to repeat, and so has spawned many clumsy imitations, particularly in Grey Lynn.

    It's an incredibly simple design – I reckon it'd be easier to repeat than the NZ flag, if one was to have a 'Recreate A Flag Of Your Choice Using Crayons' competition. For some reason.

    Its colours are unfortunate, given their use in 20th Century Europe.

    So thanks to the Nazis we can no longer use the combination of red, black and white? Why did I not get this memo?

    At least those colours have a meaning in this case:

    What does the red, white and black represent?
    These colours come from the story of creation. The black represents "Te Po" the darkness, the red represents the blood that was spilt and the white represents "Te Ao Marama" - the light.

    Since Jul 2008 • 136 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Paul that's quite a bow you've got there.
    But what did Trinadad & Tobago ever do wrong?
    http://flagspot.net/images/t/tt.gif

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    I like the idea of Treaty partner flags flying side by side on the national day, but if the the flag is going to be given de facto statutory meaning, I'd much rather see some kind of statutory process make it so.

    Maybe we need a Carly Binding Referendum.

    Sorry, wrong thread... Oh, actually it is this one. Hard to tell after a while. Good debate this. Almost makes me think we should revisit the whole flag issue, along with the republicanism debate, and the constitution, and yadda yadda yadda...

    Have we got time?

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • James W,

    Almost makes me think we should revisit the whole flag issue,

    This site has been around since the last time this came up, I believe. Personally, I find their proposed design way too sports-related but their intention is nice.

    Since Jul 2008 • 136 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    I like the idea of Treaty partner flags flying side by side on the national day, but if the the flag is going to be given de facto statutory meaning, I'd much rather see some kind of statutory process make it so.

    Yup, I agree with that. I must admit part of me kinda likes that Key has recognised that something like that could open the whole thing up to some pretty nasty attacks on all sides and has just sidestepped those and "made it happen". But a larger part of me realises that's not really the way to run a pretty serious part of our national identity.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    Almost makes me think we should revisit the whole flag issue, along with the republicanism debate, and the constitution

    So long as we revisit the republicanism/constitution debate and a change to the flag just falls out of that.
    The thought of changing our flag without that other stuff just because we don't like the picture on it sits really poorly with me.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Thanks James W, that was definitely refreshing.I do think that a flag revisit could be true recognition of closer ties.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    The flag carries a lot of baggage up north, where Samuels and Jones are from.

    And the flag that Jones is so keen on may have a "history" -- but it's also got a hell of a lot of baggage elsewhere. "The United Tribes of New Zealand" weren't any such thing -- and my iwi weren't part of it. From a slightly different perspective, the Unitesd Tribes flag is a damn sight more divisive and queasy making than "the Maori Party flag".

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • James W,

    I would've thought the entire reason for designing a new Maori flag in 1990 was because what existed carried too much baggage. That the Tino Rangatiratanga flag has since been used at protests to me says more about race relations in this country than any "meaning" imbued in the design.

    I don't see a reason it can't now go on to mean something more unifying, and being allowed to fly it on the bridge on our national day celebrating a treaty between two people seems like the perfect start.

    Since Jul 2008 • 136 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Hmmm. I must say, I could do without Phil Goff saying anything at all on the matter.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    I would've thought the entire reason for designing a new Maori flag in 1990 was because what existed carried too much baggage

    I think the reason for designing the new flag was to create an emblem of separatism. Flying that alongside the national flag is hardly a unifying gesture.

    We need a new flag that represents all of us, not an emblem of Empire and one of an unrealistic notion of Maori sovereignty.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    From a slightly different perspective, the Unitesd Tribes flag is a damn sight more divisive and queasy making than "the Maori Party flag".

    Yeah, and I think that quote from Eddie on The Standard to the effect that the tino rangitiratanga flag was the only one that could really be chose from the four. But up north it is effectively, as Shane Jones put it, "Hone's flag", and I would think there are all kinds of politics around that.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    So long as we revisit the republicanism/constitution debate and a change to the flag just falls out of that.

    Which is why my initial 'that's nice' response now seems way too simplistic. And perhaps why this is just another example of JK passing something under 'urgency'.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    I think the reason for designing the new flag was to create an emblem of separatism. Flying that alongside the national flag is hardly a unifying gesture.

    We need a new flag that represents all of us, not an emblem of Empire and one of an unrealistic notion of Maori sovereignty.

    Canada & South Africa, for all their internal ructions, got it right with their flags. Surely we can't do the same?

    It could be argued that on the one hand, the Blue Ensign has been tainted by the likes of the NF hijacking it for their own ends. On the other hand, the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is too polarising for many.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    NZPA's story goes with the "Jones and Goff at odds" angle:

    Wellington, Dec 15 NZPA -Labour MP Shane Jones and his leader, Phil Goff, appear to be at odds over the Government's choice of a Maori flag to be flown over the Auckland Harbour Bridge, Parliament and Premier House on Waitangi Day.

    Cabinet yesterday decided the tino rangatiratanga flag would be flown at significant sites controlled by the Government.

    The decision followed a series of hui which Maori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples said recorded 80 percent support for that particular flag, used as a symbol for the party he co-leads.

    It has in the past been used by activists demanding Maori separatism.

    Mr Jones criticised the hui process, saying it was run by Maori MP Hone Harawira who recently got into trouble for calling pakeha "white motherf...ers".

    "I really believe that there is a case for us evolving a new flag, a more inclusive flag, for the whole nation, and there should be a Maori dimension to that flag.

    "But the notion that we're going to go forward together, by Hone Harawira picking this flag and foisting it on John Key -- who should fly it outside his own whare rather than insist that it fly all over the North."

    The flag itself was divisive and a "perpetuation of the Maori Party and their games at Waitangi", Mr Jones said.

    But Mr Goff said the choice of flag was "fine" but dismissed the issue as minor.

    And in other comment:

    Monarchy New Zealand says flying any flag alongside the New Zealand one on Waitingi Day is potentially very divisive.

    And Nga Puhi elder Kingi Taurua says the 1835 United Tribes flag, bearing four white stars and Saint George's Crosses should have been chosen.

    Mr Key acknowledged that those in the far north feel the United Tribes flag should have been chosen.

    Historian Paul Moon says the flag is only symbolic and when it comes to substantial issues most of the country will continue to be united under the New Zealand flag.

    However, Professor Moon says the meaning of the chosen flag is vague.

    And No Right Turn is all, like, anyone who's not down with this is probably a racist. Sigh ..

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

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