Hard News: Fix up, young men
379 Responses
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keeaa, in reply to
Perhaps you should consider the impact of what you quote, rather than repeating it.
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Alfie, in reply to
Alfie’s one right here is a good example to talk to. He has responded to points made by Raena about past and current misogyny, but then he seems (to me) to simply reiterate his perception that things are different now…
I’d prefer to think that I picked up on the point I was trying to make earlier, then expanded into possible causes for the problem. But whatever…
…without really taking into account the point that in not being one of the targets his own personal experience of the amount of abuse going on is not perhaps that reliable.
At the risk of repeating myself Ben, all of the gigs I’ve attended have been in the company of women, sometimes with quite large groups of friends. Of course it’s possible that some of the women were assaulted and chose not to tell the rest of us, but knowing the women involved I find that unlikely.
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BenWilson, in reply to
At the risk of repeating myself Ben, all of the gigs I’ve attended have been in the company of women, sometimes with quite large groups of friends. Of course it’s possible that some of the women were assaulted and chose not to tell the rest of us
Alfie, I'm sorry to say that I think that it's not only possible, but likely. What's changed between then and now may well be the threshold over which they would even consider something noteworthy enough to even call an assault.
Bear in mind too, that even though I'm not old enough to have been a part of the hippy generation, I have a perfectly good memory of what being raised by hippies was like, and they're every bit as capable of lying, raping, assaulting, abusing power and so on as any other demographic. To think it's otherwise is having rose-tinted spectacles about the past.
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The only value in this thread is if there are solutions.
There have been some suggested.
Arguing about who is listening is not helping because it is driving people away - people who might be able to help with solutions.
I feel like I've been accused of something (the actual thing varies) and I've tried to apologise but frankly I'm at the point of walking away.
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Danielle, in reply to
The only value in this thread is if there are solutions.
I'm not trying to be an asshole here Bart, because you know I like you, but I really disagree. Talking about a thing - and talking about WHY we're talking about that thing in this particular way - serves a number of purposes too.
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In fact, the funny thing about hippies is that they were among the most fearsome of the schoolteachers I ever had. I always speculated that it was precisely because it was so against their self-image as free wheeling anti establishment types who were full of love that they were so incapable of seeing what authoritarian wankers they were. It confused their essence and they put blame far harder onto whatever child was getting on their goat than a more mainstream teacher who might consider that occasionally it was actually them who had fucked up in their approach to this child's education. Also, quite often, prolonged verbal abuse is much more hurtful than a mere institutional consequence like a detention. It was always quite amusing to me that the coolest kids liked the hippy teachers the least - that's not something I think those teachers ever knew about themselves.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
talking about WHY we’re talking about that thing in this particular way – serves a number of purposes too.
I would normally totally agree with you. Except the tone of that part of the conversation has shifted from discussion and trading of ideas to accusation and recrimination and is toxic.
By conflating the two discussions nothing is being progressed in either discussion and folks (or at least I) are getting tired and grumpy in the process.
I am happy to have another thread about the way we talk.
And at no point do I think you are being an arsehole about this.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Perhaps you should consider the impact of what you quote, rather than repeating it.
If remarks made by society's blowhards make us uncomfortable, fair enough. But I quote them so that they can be deconstructed for what they really are. The point I was making was that when blowhards blame women for sexual abuse because of how they dress, they're only perpetuating the rape culture, and they need to be hauled over the coals for it.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
You know how we talked upthread (contender for WOTY) about intervention, about speaking up when we saw something wrong happening. That’s what I was doing. I made Russell do nothing – he makes his own decisions.
No, quite right, I gave myself a break.
As I noted, you and I were beginning to engage in a dude debate that was blocking the space, so it made sense for me to go and do something else for a while. It's also emotionally exhausting being both responsible for and a participant in a thread like this – I literally do, and did, lie awake at night thinking about it. (I go to some lengths not to see offsite commentaries on what's going on onsite – that's generally just upsetting.)
But maybe you could ease up a bit too. You've been a little bit in danger of telling everyone else how the topic should be discussed, i.e. your way. I know very well that's not your intention, but it can feel that way.
Anyway, it is actually good that we are all still talking after 300+ comments. I do think that in many other places, such a discussion would have burst into a ball of all-consuming flame. So there's that. You're all good people, folks.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Anyway, it is actually good that we are all still talking after 300+ comments. I do think that in many other places, such a discussion would have burst into a ball of all-consuming flame. So there's that. You're all good people, folks.
I think in future, when I start quoting controversial remarks by fundies and other blowhards, I should add the disclaimer: "I read this, so you don't have to."
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B Jones, in reply to
misogynistic lyrics becoming mainstream
You do recall the Beatles sang about burning a woman's apartment down because she invited the narrator home and sent him to bed in the bath rather than with her? Or Sting's "Every Move You Make"? Or Brown Sugar? Angel in the Centerfold? Dadrock is full of misogyny and you don't even notice it, it's just part of the wallpaper.
If we think the PM should front up at Waitangi and take a bit of argy bargy on the chin, then maybe we could put up with a little argy bargy on this issue too.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I would normally totally agree with you. Except the tone of that part of the conversation has shifted from discussion and trading of ideas to accusation and recrimination and is toxic.
By conflating the two discussions nothing is being progressed in either discussion and folks (or at least I) are getting tired and grumpy in the process.
It can be difficult, but I think it’s a better way of working things out than, well, other ways.
Although I do agree that comments that appear accusatory are unhelpful. They automatically put others on the defensive, and it’s hard to respond well when you’re on the defensive. It also makes others wary of contributing.
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Probably a bit off topic, but an article that popped up on my FB feed reminded me of this thread, in the sense that there seems to be something rotten about the 'manhood'
http://rosie-writes.com/2016/02/04/dumb-ass-stuff-we-need-to-stop-saying-to-dads/
From what I've heard on this thread, we not only have to hold each other more accountable, but actually believe that men are more than a walking penis with bollocks for brains. Only when we believe we are more than the current masculine model describes can we actually transcend it.
And you know....we really need women to help us do that
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Would help if here in NZ we had some equality in Parliament and I don't mean numbers. Would it not be good to set an example from our highest office?
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I have thought a lot about the not listening thing and the dismissal of statements that state “Not all men are rapists” mean “Its not my fault, I’m a nice guy”.
Patriarchy and its heir apparent,chauvinism, depends on this reinforcement and as so the actions of the minority give benefit to the majority, even if the majority are good guys. That guys have been gifted dominion over women by some unseen hand of fate is a huge problem for the entire Human race to consider and its not OK.I do listen, I do care but do I need to apologise?.
’When Labour leader David Cunliffe went to a Women’s Refuge forum and apologised for being a man, he was trying to make an important point. Domestic violence, as he went on to say, is perpetrated overwhelmingly by men against women and children. That does not mean, as those who applauded Mr Cunliffe seem to think, that men in general are prone to violence against women or that all of their gender are somehow responsible for it. The point he wanted to make was quite the opposite: that no self-respecting man would ever, under any circumstances, hit a woman, and that any man who does so is deeply and despicably unmanly’.
Some, including John Key, felt insulted because most men were good fathers and partners. Others backed Cunliffe’s bravery. But the appalling facts and statistics that Cunliffe outlined in his speech were left out of the discussion. I do not believe he intended to divert the debate to his apology but, sadly, it happened.’
CECILE MEIER
Sometimes we completely miss the meaning while trying to either make or score, a point. -
izogi, in reply to
I don’t wan’t to distract too much from this rapidly evolving thread, which is obviously serious, but I think it’s amusing that there’s now a discussion of the discussion about the discussion. Hopefully adding this 4th layer of meta-discussion doesn’t confuse things too much further. :)
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Hopefully adding this 4th layer of meta-discussion doesn’t confuse things too much further. :)
Now I'm all fucked up inside my head man. ;
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
Now I’m all fucked up inside my head man.
See what happens when you try to internalise a complex situation inside your head, eh girl?.
Just look at yer picture,
see?..
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Just look at yer picture,
I see yours has turned all grey.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
I see yours has turned all grey.
So it has…
I have been disowned by Gravatar…
sob..
why???
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
I have a perfectly good memory of what being raised by hippies was like, and they’re every bit as capable of lying, raping, assaulting, abusing power and so on as any other demographic. To think it’s otherwise is having rose-tinted spectacles about the past.
Amen, brother. Plenty of alpha males amongst them too.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Yeah. Also, of course, lots of really nice hippies. Most of them, just like how most people are nice now.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
I have a perfectly good memory of what being raised by hippies was like,
Not all hippies were bad. As far as I know there were only 4 of us, me, Dennis, George Harrison and a guy called Mick, not Mick Jagger, this one was Janet’s boyfriend.
We all had long hair, it was the style at the time, there was another guy, who’s name was, ironically as it turns out, Terry Flower, he wasn’t a hippy as far as we were concerned, he was a truck driver who scared his wife so much she didn’t like to wake him if he fell asleep in front of the TV. wasn’t much on back then.…
hey… get off my lawn… -
selinamc, in reply to
Although I do agree that comments that appear accusatory are unhelpful. They automatically put others on the defensive, and it’s hard to respond well when you’re on the defensive.
This is totally true, but is also the reason I have stopped commenting. Because I cannot find a way to say “did you actually take in anything I said?” in response to subsequent comments without getting accusatory.
The thing is, we women are sitting at our keyboards actually facepalming. Like, literally facepalming. Because every time somebody says “well I never saw it in my day” and tries to offer explanations for why that is and why things were therefore so much better back then, there are women like myself yelling at our computer screens “I was there. My friends were there. WE experienced it.” The level of anger and frustration that comes with this, combined with dredging up memories that for many may actually be painful or distressing, can perhaps come out sounding accusatory. Sorry not sorry.
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I'm finding the "it wasn't like that in my day" theme a bit hard. I can't comment on gigs and the like, because I'm not a big gig goer.
But when some men are more or less saying that they never really saw harassment, I'm guessing that at least in part, that's because women usually don't get harassed in front of their male friend / boy friends / partners etc. There's a great comic that explains this here: What men need to understand about sexual harassment.
Worth reading in full, but if you don't want to click through right now, here's the words from the frame that's most relevant to this discussion (bolding is mine):
So, why does this matter?
Remembering that the basis for harassment of women in public spaces is around the ownership of space by men, and consequently control of the women in those spaces...
If you're a guy and you're with a woman, as a partner, lover, friend, coworker, or acquaintance, you are less likely to witness casual harassment towards that woman.
To the person who feels like he needs to control women by harassing them, that woman with you is already controlled. She is yours. They generally wouldn't challenge you as a man by harassing her. An unaccompanied woman is an uncontrolled woman, and is as such, a target.Maybe the reason that you think that sexual harassment wasn't so much of a problem previously was that it just didn't happen in front of you.
Having said that, the very public harassment that is discussed in Russell's post... well, that does feel different to me. Something about the display of it, and thinking that it's clever to display yourself as a harassing fool so prominently. But as I said, I've never been much into the music scene, so I really can't comment on that.
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