Hard News: Christchurch: Is "quite good" good enough?
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Tim: another thing we've learned in Dunedin is that an indoor stadium designed for rugby doesn't make a good concert venue - the same acoustics that amplify crowd sounds to make a lively rugby venue (2 stands facing each other reflecting the sound back and forward) make good music acoustics almost impossible
My point about making the stadium pay for itself is very important - sure your insurance company may bring down the yearly mortgage payment - but Dunedin's stadium can't even come close to breaking even if you pretend the mortgage is being paid for by a magic fairy. Rugby ticket prices are just too low - besides your stadium's biggest market competition is the Sky Rugby channel and they have your tenants by the balls
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
Oh yeah where do I start...
Paul, are there other activities in or around the stadium facility? I haven't got my head around exactly where it is in relation to Dunedin City as yet, but I assume it has a big footprint (maybe even plus large parking areas?), what is around it - industry? Housing? and is it largely a dead zone when there's nothing on - ie most of the time? (a leading question I know - but that's what I foresee here...)
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it has almost no public parking - it's between the Uni and the harbour (with all the daily parking pressures that being near the uni brings on)
The real problem is that it's nominal 30,000 seat (max) venue in a city of 120,000 - 1/4 of us have to agree that something's worth paying money to see to get a full house - to actually break even, pay the mortgage, it needs to fill itself a few times a week - it's quite out of scale with the local economy, it's a great venue but it's looking like a long term fiscal drag sucking the opportunity cost out of our city
Chch's 35,000 seat stadium in a city of 300,000 so it's more like 1/9 of you have to attend often enough - still pretty hard to do IMHO - in the SF Bay Area where I used to live there were two football and two baseball venues servicing roughly 7m people (and they were always griping about profitability) - by that estimate NZ should have just one stadium and be done with it
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The Wellington stadium was built on railway land and it is quite successful for sport because it is close to the railway station and train timetables are adjusted to the games. But it is still only full a few times a year eg the Sevens. But they also use it as a conference/seminar venue and Otago University briefly used it as a base - and that doesn't seem to work very well. It also requires a lot of commercial sponsorship and doesn't seem to ever make a profit. So a stadium needs to be near a public transport hub but the idea that is going to be used for a lot of other popular activities is a bit naive.
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My son lives in a student flat near the stadium, when there's a big event on he's not allowed to drive to his home - I found myself lumping too-hot soup many blocks to a sickbed against a tide of RWC people hoping no one was going to do me for hawking in a restricted zone ("but you've got soup")
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
he’s not allowed to drive to his home
on public roads too, is there any recompense for this intrusion on other peoples lives - or is it seen by the powers that be as a necessary sacrifice by the public (not them though) for living in what I'm sure they would have talked about as a 'vibrant modern entertainment environment'...
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merc, in reply to
It's circuses and bread, not circuses and soup.
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Keir Leslie, in reply to
Yeah, I apologise for a possibly less than constructive tone on my part as well there.
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Carol Stewart, in reply to
It also requires a lot of commercial sponsorship and doesn't seem to ever make a profit.
I thought it was the only major stadium in the country that did run surpluses.
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Invest Christchurch would seek private investment for those of the anchor projects announced yesterday that were civic assets, parks, a multi-purpose stadium, residential housing, commercial office space and an innovation hub.
Um, parks? Private sector investment in parks? What on earth.
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BenWilson, in reply to
I have to say, rapid acceleration was not their forte, but perhaps technology has improved. Perhaps you're talking about trolley buses?
You're right about that, battery powered EVs don't tend to have good acceleration. Not that rapid acceleration is especially desirable in buses on the road anyway. The EVs with high acceleration are typically running off the grid.
I'm curious about the general antipathy towards trams here. They do have some advantages. The high setup cost is counterbalanced by very long life spans of the tracks and vehicles. The ride is much higher quality than a bus. They can add carriages relatively easily during rush hour, delivering more passengers per driver. The dedicated lanes are much narrower than bus lanes, trams pass each other only a meter apart safely. The fuel efficiency is considerably more than fossil fuel powered buses. It's a closer race for electric buses, but trams still have the edge, steel on steel has much less friction than rubber on bitumen. Boarding times are much faster.
Not saying ChCh should have them, the ongoing seismic instability is an issue. But they're not something that's obviously bad. A tram system is best if it's designed into the city right from the start, and ChCh has a unique opportunity to do that. It's worth considering the pros and cons.
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Rail is off the table, is one problem. The government doesn't want them. And so that is that.
Light rail (i.e trams) was useless as public transport when it was a pointless heritage thing here. So I think that gives it a bad name. And then the proposed light rail to the airport was kinda odd and monorail-y.
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Lilith __, in reply to
A tram system is best if it’s designed into the city right from the start, and ChCh has a unique opportunity to do that. It’s worth considering the pros and cons.
The difficulty is the cost. I've heard estimates as high as $1.8B. I agree it would be great (provided it was a proper network and not a tourist toy), but I don't think there's sufficient will to try and raise that kind of money.
As Sacha said, bus lanes on the main routes would reserve the space for other forms of public transport in the future.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Well it's not an idea that's generally monorailly. Again, might not be appropriate for ChCh, but there are numerous examples of successful tram systems around the world.
I'd have thought buses better, personally, just because we're a poor country, and buses are the initially cheap option, very low political hurdles, whilst still a big improvement on a system designed around cars. A tram system needs to be committed to, or it's piecemeal and pointless. Christchurch has a chance that might never come again to consider it fully. A tram system done well is teh awesome, so I'd hate for it to be off the table just because we're all short term thinking stallies.
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BenWilson, in reply to
I've heard estimates as high as $1.8B
I'd be amazed if it was a cheap as that. But it's built to last, something that would be a novelty in NZ.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
Joyce green fail...
A tram system is best if it’s designed into the city right from the start, and ChCh has a unique opportunity to do that. It’s worth considering the pros and cons.
Yesterday on Jim Mora's Afternoons the Panel segment, Garry Moore said he was on the NZ Transport board and suggested post-earthquake that Chchch had a chance to get these things right, green belts for cycles and infrastructure etc - and Steven Joyce rejected it out of hand! (Listen to MP3 here at approx 4.50)
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Lilith __, in reply to
I’d have thought buses better, personally, just because we’re a poor country, and buses are the initially cheap option, very low political hurdles, whilst still a big improvement on a system designed around cars.
I've said it before, but Chch's bus system is really good, and pre-quake was expanding rapidly to be really brilliant. Unfortunately post-quake they've been struggling for patronage (as have taxi companies) because people are going out a lot less (fewer places to go!)
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Lilith __, in reply to
Chchch had a chance to get these things right, green belts for cycles and infrastructure etc – and Steven Joyce rejected it out of hand!
But…isn’t a green belt and lots of cycle paths/lanes in the Plan?
Has the govt actually read the plan? Or are they just signing things like John Banks? -
Keir Leslie, in reply to
Hah! I left out the bit of that post that was a map of how my tram system would work!
Christchurch is pretty well suited to trams. If you look at the way the city is, it's clearly still got the memory of the old tram system in it.
Heavy rail might be a better bet for Rolleston/Belfast, but I'd personally like to see a tram network in Chch.
I do think those reasons above are partly why people are a bit dark on trams.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
Off the buses?
Unfortunately post-quake they’ve been struggling for patronage
and are proposing cutting back or stopping services all over the place - buses every hour instead of half hour in some places - and creating extra connections for people to get where they used to go in one trip...
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Richard Aston, in reply to
.... just in case the post was misunderstood,NOTHING
will be reinvested into the Government-driven scheme for THEIR rebuilding of ChChCh…. There are much better places to rebuild Otautahi – which was a temporary river & seasonal camp. Get out of the flood plain – go into the foothills – otherwise,
grief IS assurred.I'd like to hear more on this Islander .
First point - the ChCh rebuild is being funded by all New Zealand , and we have all taken a hit on insurance premiums because of the earthquake damage.
I lived in ChCh for year way back in 2002 so cannot claim any whenua but the rebuild does affect us all.In the time I did live in ChCh much as I loved the country, the hills, the uplifting sight of snow covered alps every winters day I did run into the oldboys network.
I found it almost impossible to get work in ChCh identified as an Aucklander until in desperation I called myself an Auckland refugee. My pakeha family name was not on the first four ships and therefore for example I could not get my marriage celebrant's license until I moved back to Auckland.ChCh does have its tight "old" money parochial networks and it does have an underbelly.
Was this this new city focused design influenced by any of that? -
Matthew Poole, in reply to
Steven Joyce rejected it out of hand!
Lord Uber-Fuhrer Joyce arbitrarily rejecting something to do with public transport? Say it ain't so!
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Lilith __, in reply to
Unfortunately post-quake they’ve been struggling for patronage
and are proposing cutting back or stopping services all over the place – buses every hour instead of half hour in some places – and creating extra connections for people to get where they used to go in one trip…
Yes. That would suck. I remember back in the day when the buses only went once an hour on Sundays, and they all met in the Square, and we scurried between. I remember walking long distances because walking was better than standing and waiting for 45 minutes. An hourly bus service is hardly worth having. Anyone with any other option will take it.
I remember when they switched some of the routes to 15 minutes from half-an-hour and patronage soared. Buses were suddenly an easy option.
I understand they don't want to keep running mostly-empty buses, but if they cut services, the system will die.
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Sacha, in reply to
If you look at the way the city is, it's clearly still got the memory of the old tram system in it.
Same with Auckland's inner suburbs.
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Lilith __, in reply to
Which means,
just in case the post was misunderstood,
NOTHING
will be reinvested into the Government-driven scheme for THEIR rebuilding of ChChCh….There are much better places to rebuild Otautahi – which was a temporary river & seasonal camp.
Get out of the flood plain – go into the foothills – otherwise,
grief IS assurred.Islander, can you explain what you mean? I thought you were talking about right-wing politics, but are you talking about geography?
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