Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Fairy-Tale Autopsies

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  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    The thing is, we’ve all been asses on the internet. (BEEN, not seen.)

    People assume I'm an immigrant when it would be more accurate to say that I'm a fugitive.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Firstly, Bart is completely adorable, but I believe him too. Because yeah, we've all done it.

    Secondly, a mere six pages later, Sacha's question:

    A strong community can deal with something like lil p's latest foray because it has the resilience.

    True. How do we nurture that?

    Now, I apologise in advance for being long and waffly. I have no problem at all if people want to TL:DR this.

    When I started doing this kind of stuff (over a freaking decade ago now, holy hells) it was with a community of, well, refugees, basically, from a community where bitching, game-playing and bullying were really common. We reacted to that, and what we ended up making was a very restrictive, walled-garden sort of environment which was safe, but has ended up very slowly and protractedly dying from lack of fresh blood. Our users were basically starting from an assumption that People on the Internet were Bastards. So, IMO, over-protectiveness, over-modding, does not breed resilient communities.

    But I'm going to assume that when Sacha says "we" he means "PA's commenters/community members" rather than mods/writers. So I'll just briefly mention the fantastic amount of work Russell puts in to making this a healthy, engaged community that feels like it has a sense of ownership, and feels cared about. And also I think there's a genuine sense that all writers are also a part of the comment community, that there's very little hierarchy.

    I'll also note that it's (IME) really quite the testimony that we can have a conversation like this without it degenerating into people just whining about too much and not enough modding. So... trust your mods? Every now and then I've popped a quiet email to a user to say, "Look, I understand why you said X, but what you don't know is that behind the scenees, just quietly, Y." And every time I've done it the response has been really positive. We don't delete a lot, so y'know, what we do? You really didn't want to see. OTOH, sounds like Russell and I were both watching the "perverse entertainment" thread just to make sure it wasn't getting out of hand at any point, but didn't feel it needed intervening in more than it was.

    The other thing I'd suggest is what Josh said, that sometimes the best thing to do is just let one go, y'know? You don't have to have every fight, or pursue one into the ground. People aren't going to think you lost just because you walked away. And if a comment can be taken two ways? Check if it's actually an insult. "It sounds like you meant" or "Did you mean to say" are quite useful phrases.

    As are, while I'm on it, the conditionals. Some, sometimes, in my opinion, I think, maybe... Little words, but important. More important the thornier the issue is.

    Now, I'm not saying YOU MUST be all kittens and bunnies and Obamacorns all the time, because frankly coming from me that'd be fucking RIDICULOUS. But if the question is "how can we nurture our resilience", I think part of the answer is "don't waste your energy on stupid shit".

    Also: as people have said here, confirming comments ("yes, me too") are just as important as contradictory ones. It's not 'nothing to say'.

    And (I'm going to shut up really soon now) if it's within your social, financial and geographical abilities, turn up to shit in real life. Great Blends, etc. Because meeting people face to face really, really helps. (As does PA's legendary Responsibly Priced Alcohol policy.)

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Emma Hart,

    confirming comments ("yes, me too") are just as important as contradictory ones.

    +1

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19735 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    @Ben re Falling Down: That's interesting, because my memory of the film is that it stands up for us unappreciated middle-aged white men, who are horribly discriminated against in modern society by members of various minority groups. Is that a valid interpretation, or have I totally misremembered the film?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Also: as people have said here, confirming comments (“yes, me too”) are just as important as contradictory ones. It’s not ‘nothing to say’.

    Couldn't agree more.

    And (I’m going to shut up really soon now) if it’s within your social, financial and geographical abilities, turn up to shit in real life. Great Blends, etc. Because meeting people face to face really, really helps. (As does PA’s legendary Responsibly Priced Alcohol policy.)

    I would like to endorse this. It is so important in a community like this that people engage face to face. If you think the discussions are interesting online, they are even better offline. Once you get past the touching of faces and arms, and hugging and stuff. Okay, that's just me.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Danyl Mclauchlan,

    my memory of the film

    you went and saw it with that Damien O'Connor chap, didn't you? :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19735 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Now, I apologise in advance for being long and waffly. I have no problem at all if people want to TL:DR this.

    What tosh. Hardly got into first gear.

    Now I don't know if there's a prize or you get banned for posting Supertramp, but after reading your post, this sprung into my head.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Sacha,

    Because meeting people face to face really, really helps. (As does PA's legendary Responsibly Priced Alcohol policy.)

    I have to say, the RPAP has helped me with a number of things. As to whether any of those things were positive, that's another question.

    But yeah, the meeting of people, the joking in real life...__really__ important. (And hey, one of my dearest friends, who is now describing me as her girlfriend all over the internet, came out of this place. So I am immensely thankful.)

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Is there a one-armed man after you?

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2935 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    And hey, one of my dearest friends, who is now describing me as her girlfriend all over the internet, came out of this place.

    Hey, if anyone's coming out... Wait. That's inappropriate.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg, in reply to Danyl Mclauchlan,

    it stands up for us unappreciated middle-aged white men, who are horribly discriminated against in modern society by members of various minority groups

    That's my memory of it too. And if it weren't for the new file-sharing bill, I could probably download it and report back in 30 minutes.

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 802 posts Report Reply

  • Jacqui Dunn, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Check if it's actually an insult.

    One of the drawbacks of not being face to face is that it's harder to tell. A smile or a wink when something's said face-to-face are clues - so I find those little marks people make on the blogs quite useful.

    I have to say, having met and talked to several Auckland/Hamilton people (thanks to Jackie C), I am not nearly so painstaking (I wonder if any of them have noticed?) to avoid any hint of a snark with them. (Of course, the next time we all meet up, I might get a bop over the ear for my smarts!)

    Deepest, darkest Avondale… • Since Jul 2010 • 585 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to nzlemming,

    Is there a one-armed man after you?

    Pfui. Our one-armed men have no arms at all.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Hey, if anyone’s coming out… Wait. That’s inappropriate.

    And that has stopped us…exactly when? No, I mean it, name a time being inappropriate has stopped either of us doing something.

    I am not nearly so painstaking (I wonder if any of them have noticed?) to avoid any hint of a snark with them. (Of course, the next time we all meet up, I might get a bop over the ear for my smarts!)

    Nah, the PAS community is violence-free. Or so I’ve been told, or I wouldn’t be nearly so free with my snark.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Emma Hart,

    And if a comment can be taken two ways? Check if it's actually an insult. "It sounds like you meant" or "Did you mean to say" are quite useful phrases.

    Or even, "hey, if I get you right here, I'm a bit offended by that". That's good too.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22843 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    No, I mean it, name a time being inappropriate has stopped either of us doing something.

    Separately? I think a handful of times. Together? Never.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Separately? I think a handful of times. Together? Never.

    I keep thinking back to the post-september-quake PAS gathering/commiserbration, and that table full of families, who gave us very filthy looks.

    Or even, "hey, if I get you right here, I'm a bit offended by that". That's good too.

    The only problem with that, is when they don't answer, you get even more offended. And in my own case, shrill.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Jacqui Dunn, in reply to recordari,

    I don't know if there's a prize or you get banned for posting Supertramp

    Whoops! That was nearly me a week or so ago. Dreamer......

    Pfui. Our one-armed men have no arms at all.

    LOL

    Deepest, darkest Avondale… • Since Jul 2010 • 585 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    The only problem with that, is when they don't answer, you get even more offended. And in my own case, shrill.

    Oh, I think we've pretty well established that when you ask someone if they were offensive deliberately, and they continue to post but don't respond, they meant it.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Danyl Mclauchlan,

    Is that a valid interpretation, or have I totally misremembered the film?

    There are elements of that, but it's not a full reading. His kind of crazy, at its root, is meant to be a deeply scary kind, that his entire mission on the day is actually to kill his family. It is only funny when various people make the mistake of getting in his way. By no means are these people restricted to minorities. He takes on shopkeepers, muggers, rude people, beggars, neonazis, a fast food chain, some rich golfers, council workers wrecking the roads, etc.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10655 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah, in reply to Emma Hart,

    @Emma

    I have a new super-secret project in the offing

    If that's what I think it is, then I 'm thrilled, because I have been dying to ask, but not wanting to get in the way and generally be a PITA.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1447 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Deborah,

    If that's what I think it is, then I 'm thrilled

    It is, indeed. I just did that "oooh, mystery" wiggly thing with my fingers.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Oh see now I feel left out. I can't even imagine what it would be. Shit.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to BenWilson,

    The worst bit about it is that the ending's a full-on cop-out: It's not the fault of the system that he went crazy - he was mentally ill all along!

    I think it's a lot more ambiguous than that. He had a capacity for anger, and was angry and sad because of what he perceived to be failures of the system. And the events of the day did rather conspire to bring out his crazy side.

    Well, we could agree to disagree, but in the spirit of the thread, we could also argue heatedly about this until we both look like tremendous dicks to everyone else :)

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Rich Lock,

    Well, we could agree to disagree, but in the spirit of the thread, we could also argue heatedly about this until we both look like tremendous dicks to everyone else :)

    You left a “more” out of that sentence…

    :-p

    ETA I think you left a "more" out of that sentence... </spirit_of_the_thread>

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2935 posts Report Reply

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