Cracker: Get it Off
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come on, IO - it's just getting interesting! Stuck at home with a fevery virus, there's nothing better for sweating it out - apart from vast doses of panadeine - than a good old debate.
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and could not believe American girls would be so ...needy....
You would totally enjoy this.
Which was a doco commissioned by the California Education board, who then wished they'd never bothered.
It was hilarious.
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What I care about is that young women - as young as 4 - are buying into the same old shit.
Yeah, but are they? See, I've heard a lot of people complain about the My Little Hooker range appearing in shops, but I've never actually seen a kid wearing it.
I'm not over it. But then, I have three little girls.
And I have a ten year old daughter.
You know what peer pressure is like, how as teenagers and young adults most people just desperately want to fit in.
Yep, I do. I remember being a teenager, which is why I want my daughter to just be happy. If she's genuinely happy in a mini*, I'm fine with that. We have an official house ban on the phrase 'you're not going out dressed like that'.
But what I have noticed is that what kids want to wear (because this is a problem for boys too, conformity) is what their friends are wearing, not what Mutya Buena is wearing. Current acceptable wear for swimming is a four-piece: bikini, board shorts, and a rash vest. Man, I feel like I've said all this before, and I have.
*I'd be hugely less fine with her being happy in a Hummer. You know what we trendy liberals are like.
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I know its possibly a hackneyed debate, but it is women who edit and write for women's magazines, and have been doing so for the last 30+ years.
And then along come women like Jane Pratt, who get forced to change and then kicked out by the male media owners. I'm not trying to make this man vs woman, and I know that girls do a lot of damage to each other as well, but I just felt it was important to mention that the magazines which are actually good for girls, like Bust or Bitch are female-__owned__.
(I really overuse the italics, huh?)
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When I stopped subscribing to the NZ Women's Weekly in the early 1990s, I wrote telling them why, saying that a magazine formerly of general interest and which had celebrated women's many pursuits and achievements had now put that aside to become obsessed by celebrities, diets, the supernatural, and outward appearance. It had dropped about 40 IQ points. Dear God, I said, is this what New Zealand women's lives have become reduced to?
The editor had the uncommon grace to write back to me to say that she agreed with me, but that her bosses and the Aussie money men had now made these the requirements of her job. She resigned not long after.
But magazines are only part of the influence. Music is huge with the younger generation - far more so than when I was their age - and it's become almost entirely a nasty soup of male hormones. Much of it is plain malevolent towards women. But if the music is irredeemable, there'ss the dick-flick influence of telly, as I outlined above, and we (almost) own that medium, and ought to be able to do something about it.
If we wanted to, that is, and have not all succumbed to Stockholm Syndrome...
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people we're still moving forward. Heck, we've seen the complete transformation of centuries of gender oppression in just 40 years, hands up who thought it was going to be that easy? :)
sure, but could i see some responses to a test?
when rudd is outed as having been to a strip club, he get blokey back slaps.
what would happen to a female mp who was outed as a former stripper?
my gut tells me that those 40 years of apparent progress in gender equality would evaporate. does that mean that all this "empowerment" is so much hot air?
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I'm going to take a timeout because I don't want to sidetrack the thread by getting male-defensive (as I've done). I think the Ladies are making better points ....
I'd sort of be done with a thread on sexual politics that men didn't feel comfortable contributing to. This:
So Emma's worry about telling other women what to do is a bit like worrying about criticising the working classes for their failure to throw off their shackles
had me humming Billy Bragg's version of The Internationale the whole time I was out in the garden.
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Che, it could be gone by lunchtime....
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"My niece is 9, and gets changed under a towel. That might not seem much, but isn't that the start of body shame?"
That's just modesty, isn't it? I'd be more surprised at a 9 year old boy or girl who still wanted to get changed with no cover.
Most guys I know (pardon my use of cliche) do not want to have sex with boy-thin chicks. Curveacious (sp?) women are just fine, thank you. But what do women do?...
An assumption there is that "guys" and "women" are homogenous groups with a common interest in everyone's happiness. You can explain that seeming puzzle if you assume that in each group a small number are jockeying for power over the others, and one group for power over the other group.
Another assumption is that editors are concerned with the welfare of their readers. I think the facts are better explained by the hypothesis that those editors don't give a rats' about the happiness of their readers (or charitably, are deeply misguided about what might lead to happiness, and the fact the combining insecurity about your own body with the comfort of trashing others leads to repeat sales is a complete coincidence).
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Definitely relevant Che, that was my point about society's attitude toward "the whore" being a barometer of sorts.
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hmmm... most sex workers i've known or heard about via friends tend to have serious drug problems that preclude appetite.
the benefit of a bogan past. you get to see the real side of the object up on the stage.
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I'd sort of be done with a thread on sexual politics that men didn't feel comfortable contributing to
Absolutely, Emma. And yes, little girls are buying into this stuff - or should I say, they see it all around them, they want it, the significant adults in their lives buy it for them. I've heard 3 year old girls, yes 3, talk about what they think is sexy. Some little girls will always be about loving pink and being girly, and that's okay. I just think we've swung too far the other way, personally.
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Do you really panic about the idea of little girls using the word sexy Jackie? I think it would be good to cut down on the sexualised images that children get exposed to especially on music videos and the images that they recieve about body image need to be balanced out for sure.
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my gut tells me that those 40 years of apparent progress in gender equality would evaporate. does that mean that all this "empowerment" is so much hot air?
..I don't know if it proves it's all hot air, but it's a good example of an issue that's being both resolved and inflamed by differing schools of gender politics. You've got all sorts of angles, from "no shame in that" to "woman finally frees herself from the shackles of oppressive profession and makes good".
Granted, regardless of how enlightened we get, I think the very nature of the sex industry means that a woman will always have a problem getting into a high-profile role when there are men out there who have paid money to see her naked and gyrating in their laps. However, I also doubt that every stripper wants to be a politician, and stripping isn't the only bad career choice.
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they see it all around them, they want it, the significant adults in their lives buy it for them.
This close to using the phrase "I blame the parents". Next thing you know I'll be complaining about people being 'soft on crime'. Seriously, though, I have a daughter, I have several friends with daughters, and none of us would dream of buying into the 'padded bras for preschoolers' thing. My girl went a school disco last night, kids up to 12 yo, and not one girl there was dressed like a music video producer's wet dream.
My daughter's also perfectly fine getting changed in front of people she knows. She does get told she's pretty and she doesn't get told she should be ashamed of her body, at least not by us. (She also gets praised for being bright and clever and talented, she's not just valued for her looks.)
And y'know... I think maybe the most important thing I've seen said here was this:
think in some cases the way things can be less exploitative (but not perfect, I don't claim to have all the answers) is if there is more knowledge about choices available. That you don't have to dress in skanky clothes if you don't want to. Or that if you choose to take off your clothes for money, you don't have to sleep with the clientale even if they're offering to pay you for that as well.
Choice. It's choice.
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my gut tells me that those 40 years of apparent progress in gender equality would evaporate. does that mean that all this "empowerment" is so much hot air?
Not sure if Georgina Beyer counts in this context as being a female MP, I'd have thought yes, but she was there, and gender equality didn't collapse as a result.
Of course, she may be exceptional in being up front and staunch about her history. There could be a different outcome if an MP was outed against their will.
She said during the Prostitution Law Reform bill:
I support the bill, because, as everybody knows, I have had experience in the sex industry—and I am the only member of this Parliament to have had it.
It does make you wonder whether she was correct, in the most general sense. What would be the result if an MP was outed as paying for sex, rather than merely ironically watching strippers?
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I think the very nature of the sex industry means that a woman will always have a problem getting into a high-profile role when there are men out there who have paid money to see her naked and gyrating in their laps.
..oh, I guess I inadvertently showed my colours on that one - that regardless of why a woman chooses to strip, her profession is all about objectification.
Hmm..now I have to work out what to do with that little revelation.
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I've heard a lot of people complain about the My Little Hooker range appearing in shops, but I've never actually seen a kid wearing it.
heh heh. Come to Auckland! My 'timeout' was timed to go to my 5 y.o. daughters school and hand her over for a playdate (new friend). Whilst there I observed another 5 y.o. girl in a t-shirt sloganed "My Mother's A Pornstar!". Since I didn't see the mother I can't vouch for the veracity of the statement.
Another assumption is that editors are concerned with the welfare of their readers. I think the facts are better explained by the hypothesis that those editors don't give a rats' about the happiness of their readers
Or, possibly the editorial staff think more highly of their efforts than is evident. Like that guy from (environmental group ) The Sierra Club who now works for Wal-Mart (__"I'm fighting from within"__.
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I think Georgina Byer has to be one of the most remarkable people I've ever met (OK I listened to her speak).
Tell all before you go into politics and no fish hooks to snag on during your time in office.
Does she count as a women in this discussion?
If so isn't she the barometer of how far we have come?Emma I had Billys Romero playing in my head yesty
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What Heather said.
But to back track a bit, someone (Stephen Judd?) made a comment about false consciousness.
I find it obnoxiousness to tell a woman (or a man) that what she (I'm going to ditch the careful gender equity in pronouns now, and just use 'she' - a conscious revesal of the position taken by 17th century grammarians who decided by fiat that 'he' comprehended, ie. included, 'she'), anyway, to tell a woman what she thinks about herself is wrong, and my own view of her is the correct one.
But there was a point to the consciousness raising groups espoused by 1970s feminism. When I read The Female Eunuch a few years ago, I was struck by Germaine Greer's description of women who were only just starting to realise that there was something rotten going on when they went out to work all day, spent their lunch break running errands, and then came home to cook and clean while their husbands, who had also been working all day, came home and put their feet up in front of the tellie.
I like the idea of just being able to wear what I damn well want - that's why I'm wearing my MaryJane-style purple Docs today. But it seems odd when "I will wear what I damned well want" turns out to be "and that will be shoes that hurt, skirts so short that you can see whatever I am wearing, or not wearing, underneath, crop tops, and pouty red lips," all on a 16 year old girl. There's an odd undercurrent there, of turning girls into sex objects. And I wodner if they are even aware of what's going on.
I really don't have a particular issue with strip clubs, even if I do think they are tacky. But I think there's a continuum here, from raunchy clothes, to dancing at a strip club, to lap dancing, to close contact lap dancing (or whatever), to going out to a back room for a 'special' massage, through to ... well, you get the point.
There's two thoughts here - that raunch culture really might be part of the pornography / sex industry culture, and that it's not quite clear where to draw the line, if anywhere. Like I said, the key criterion is consenting adults, and while we might be clear enough about who we deem to be adults, I don't think we have a good understanding of what might constitute consent.
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Not sure if Georgina Beyer counts in this context as being a female MP,
She certainly counts by virtue of being at the receiving end of gender discrimination. The thoughts behind my original post were driven in part by how the trans-gender community has also fought for recognition.
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Does she count as a women in this discussion?
Oh, FFS, should there be any debate? Of course she's a woman ...
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Must type faster - sorry for the duplication
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don't agree, Russell, that the little girls at venues like The Big Day Out aren't chasing after boys like they used to. Of course they are, they're just less open about it.
Sheesh. I'm not going to get far if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong every time I make an observation, am I?
(a) I've been to every Big Day Out and I have seen the culture change. Girls used to have to have a boy to follow round. Now they organise their own fun. And they're great.
(b) Yes, they are going to chase after boys. Like boys chase after girls.
I don't have daughters, but I do have alot of nieces and I teach a lot of little girls. My niece is 9, and gets changed under a towel. That might not seem much, but isn't that the start of body shame? Like I said, the same old shit, it seems to me.
Have you asked her why? Kids go through phases of modesty. Maybe that's the way they do things in her house. It's drawing a really, really long bow to declare that "the start of body shame".
daleaway:
Competent and experienced female journalists are dumped because they lack the "shag factor" - don't take my word for it, Granny Herald reported it last week. And it's bloody offensive. So when you lose the ability to raise a male TV executive's wan willy, your job expertise counts for nothing and you're out on your ear or relegated to backroom duties.
True, but what you're describing impacts nearly as much on male TV journalists (although, oddly, has never been the case on American television). Especially in presenting roles, television is the domain of the relatively attractive. Which is why almost everyone with a major onscreen role becomes appearance-obsessed, and why my career has extended only so far as radio ...
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I was struck by Germaine Greer's description of women who were only just starting to realise that there was something rotten going on when they went out to work all day, spent their lunch break running errands, and then came home to cook and clean while their husbands, who had also been working all day, came home and put their feet up in front of the tellie.
This happened to me two days ago, when I found out one of my friends, a SAHM who'd recently gone back to work, was rushing home every lunchtime to clean the house. So I'll cop to occasionally looking at another woman and thinking 'WTF are you DOING?'
But I think we do all have a very human need to try to fill in the blanks in these puzzles, even if that means making assumptions about what's going through the heads of people we've never met. Which is a fruitless exercise if ever there was one. Personally, my high heels are really comfortable and I like the authoritarian clicky noise they make on the footpath. The same was true when I was sixteen, except I'm gutsier about my fabulous cleavage these days.
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