I would also like to know what makes people fall in love, and then excise it with a scalpel and preserve it in jar filled with formalin

That is one great metaphor.

Metaphor? I saw it more in a Jack-the-Ripper kind of way – in line with the 19th century…

I thought you were both in Wellington & diff age groups don't always exclude friends.

That's true, but it'll be a fantastic coincidence if they were the same person, even though this IS Wellington & we've all probably slept with both of them without knowing. :)

And I think Jo was talking…

are you older than me?

Yep, I've made it out of my teens now...

Michael, given that Llew and I are of different age groups

are you older than me?

It just seemed to make sense, when it was explained to me.

Joanna & Andrew I wonder if you're both talking about the same person? I would think she is the tip of the ice berg anyway.

Oh hey, I'm not arguing otherwise, just passing on my small experience, which struck me as being similar to Jo's.

No, highly unlikely to be the…

But then we're back to that circular argument: is there no legitimate reason for a woman to strip/do porn/prostitute herself? Must she, by definition, always be an exploited person?

i don't think i said that? don't think anyone else did either but am too lazy to go back and check.…

On the other hand I also had a friend who worked in the industry while doing her degree because she made a lot of money doing it

ditto, only woman I know who was a sex worker (as opposed to those I might know who didn't reveal it), did it…

I can't speak with first hand experience of…

people like Victoria Zdrok fascinate me

Wow – that is a great link! The short answer is that it's 'easy' money. Once you get your head around having your picture taken whilst naked ....
Some 'stars' do leapfrog straight into the big time, usually because they know their worth and start…

Must she, by definition, always be an exploited person? There are women out there who strip/do porn/prostitute themselves who would argue otherwise.

I think there's exploitation and there's exploitation. Case in point: I was watching some random German porn movie with my flatmates, who'd unearthed the tape that they used…

I would also like to know what makes people fall in love, and then excise it with a scalpel and preserve it in jar filled with formalin

That is one great metaphor.

Metaphor? I saw it more in a Jack-the-Ripper kind of way – in line with the 19th century…

There is a gender and class dialectic lurking behind stripping, and it's very hard to tease it out. So keep asking the difficult questions!

i'd…

That is one great metaphor.

This is the link to the article Dyan was referring to.

Thank you Deborah, I was struggling with that. I still don't know what you did... my links kept leading to that dreaded "404 not found" message.

Stephen Judd wrote:

That is an interesting article, but like a lot of…

I'm occasionally disgusted by what turns me on, so I don't like it as such.

Oh, thank god. The other day I read something that made me think: "Eww!"

Not to dumb down the conversation or anything, but did anyone else read the article in last month's Metro and go…

Binik, the study's author, said he didn't actually show that women like pornography — just that their bodies react to it.

Nor does the study, as represented in the article, appear to show that women don't like pornography. As some women clearly DO like pornography (unless you take the view…

Def Poetry Jam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLk_Q3Cq2Ns

Binik, the study's author, said he didn't actually show that women like pornography — just that their bodies react to it.

Nor does the study, as represented in the article, appear to show that women don't like pornography. As some women clearly DO like pornography (unless you take the view…

I'm joining the National Distribution Union (Actors Equity) in the morning.

Off Topic
Great link to UN CERD.
I'm really keen on No13 Intro of The Treaty of Waitangi into Domestic law, any thoughts?

The Seattle Times: Health: Women may respond to porn, but not in a ...

or

Carnal Looking at porn through a gender gap

and failing either of those links, just google Irv Blinik (McGill) and Stephen Pinker (Harvard) as they have quite a lot…

The result? No matter what the pairing – whether male/female or female/female – the subjects had similar reactions to both, and according to Bailey this proves that women will respond to anything, regardless of their sexual orientation.

This study from McGill University may put Bailey's research in a different light.…

(I wouldn't open that link at work if I were you.)

Is it just just me, or is my browser doing something weird with the colour? That top-right graphic looks awfully like a heaving mass of excrement on the bed.

(I wouldn't open that link at work if I were you.)

Call it an Omen overtone moment.

Now you can have Satanistic connections for your Google hits as well.

(If someone googles my name, I'd hate for it not to be linked to a conversation about Gallery excess and female ejaculation)

No, I had to go back and check myself: that's female ejaculation, aka squirting, she was referring to.

*Finally* this thread is getting on the right track. :)

And what an amazing rollercoaster ride it's been. I start off talking about strippers, we have a huge foray into the state…

As for naming three – well you know the gallery is a bastion of the abstemious lifestyle :-)

Heh – well, I know one pretty well, and you are absolutely right Felix, the words 'abstemious' and 'bastion' positively flew into mind :)

Felix:

Damien you are sooo going to get lynched (again?) the next time you show up at 3.2

Yeah, but tell me it's not true. Tell me you can't name at least three right now who fit into that category... If you can't, I'll agree, pack my bags and leave…

Cool. Genuine insight. Things I'd never thought about before, from people with different brains than mine.

Well, I had to give something back for the half hour I spent at the MsNaughty blog this afternoon going, "Yes, goddammit, that's what I was trying to say".

I always heard they used pina colada mix! Another illusion shattered.

No, I had to go back and check myself: that's female ejaculation, aka squirting, she was referring to.

It appears that the industry has pulled a con on its punters there.

But, true fact: The Chief Censor once expressed…

they must be pretending to be lesbians?

as a rule of thumb, you can determine real lesbian porn by the length of the fingernails ...

but I'm not trying to buy a fight, nor speak for anyone ...

and there's in an interesting quote in that link to __Students React to…

I guess having an unusual name ruins your online plausible deniability.

Of course, for the male hetero brain 'straight sex' includes 'two or more hot women pretending to be lesbians' ...

Oh great IO, now you're saying that if they're hot then they must be pretending to be lesbians? And I thought we'd come so far... ;)

Touche!

Here's a blog I wrote last year on gay pr0n and women. The first comment is from a good friend of mine who writes literal tonnes of slash. Part of the comment goes like this:

Cool. Genuine insight. Things I'd never thought about before, from people with different brains than…

Of course, for the male hetero brain 'straight sex' includes 'two or more hot women pretending to be lesbians' ...

Oh great IO, now you're saying that if they're hot then they must be pretending to be lesbians? And I thought we'd come so far... ;)

You have acknowledge the slogan "All men are Rapists" is wrong,(still held onto by Deborah) but then excuse it . The excesses of these campaigns have led to murder (Gaye Oaks) & false convictions due to recovered memory etc.

Michael, how can you possibly mistake a murder of…

mainstream porn has never been about the connection between the individuals within the piece it's…

To pick up on the Georgina Beyer question, are we all playing let's pretend? Does anyone think female-to-male transexuals are really men? Or are they surgically altered females with bodies full of chemicals? Which is not to say, of course, that they are not damned fine individuals deserving…

The result? No matter what the pairing – whether male/female or female/female – the subjects had similar reactions to both, and according to Bailey this proves that women will respond to anything, regardless of their sexual orientation.

The same could not be said of straight or gay men, however -…

Students React to Watching Pornography in the Classroom

By a show of hands after the viewing, the class expressed that it was the man-on-man pornography, which featured oral and anal sex, that caused students…

And then there's the slightly odd phenomenon of slashfic (gay male pr0n lit), the vast majority of which is written by women.

Forgot about that. And there's even Harry Potter slash! Eeew!

I can testify from my personal acquaintance that there are women who really like reading, writing and looking…

There are probably heaps of by-women-for-women erotica blogs....I don't know what women might want to look at. Probably not recontextualised gay porn, though.

And then there's the slightly odd phenomenon of slashfic (gay male pr0n lit), the vast majority of which is written by women. I can testify from my…

Interesting bit embedded in it:

__One thing that she highlights that I found interesting was the widespread notion amongst women who are trying to cut out a feminist space in porn that women…

I don't know if they were Engineering students, but those riotus folk down Dunedin at weekend were definitely doing the Haka.

Sorry, must have missed out the tags.

When I was at uni, back before the invention of fire, we used 'engineer' to refer to a particular behaviour, not a…

I don't know if they were Engineering students, but those riotus folk down Dunedin at weekend were definitely doing the Haka.

Was after the Undie 500, which is run by ENSOC. That doesn't mean that all or even most of the people involved were engineering students, but there's a definite…

drunken engineering students never do the haka when they're rioting these days ;-)

I don't know if they were Engineering students, but those riotus folk down Dunedin at weekend were definitely doing the Haka.

see it here

Are you worried you're being run out of town because of your article, Damian?

I've just caught up on all the bile floating around, thanks for the link Joanna. Hardly surprising, and seems mainly to be the result of one strange little individual who's obviously had a problem with me…

What proportion of transactions involve male escorts sleeping with women though?

Okay, I'm now doing what I've been trying to avoid and theorising about an industry I have no experience of, but I would think 'more since Viagra'. Previously, biology would handicap men working as prostitutes for women (ie as…

A thought that follows on from discussion about the gender imbalance – that the sex industry is primarily women catering to the needs…

As for modern music – it doesn't float my boat in any case, so I have no opinion about it. I'm more of a jazz, classical and opera woman. Each to their own.

A little Anna Netrebko always brightens my day.

If you can't, I'll agree, pack my bags and leave Wellington immediately.

Are you worried you're being run out of town because of your article, Damian?

(Great discussion up until the last little bit by the way, you make me proud)

Felix:

Damien you are sooo going to get…

It is kind of red rag stuff 'though. Next it will all be because it must be my red rag time of the month.

Whatever, Michael. If anyone else wnats to do the analysis on this one, they are welcome. I'm going to stay out of it.

so deborah, how about it? are you able to function rationally without the calming presence of your husband?

BMI had me a heavy when I was a lightweight rower. I've never trusted since

But BMI is not meant to be applied to an individual, it is a tool for statistical classifications of populations. As I've said, it does not take into account: muscle mass, bone…

You've admitted selling a beastiality film. That put you in a new light to me.

Sigh

Yes Michael, I know how it is ... you suck cock once and for the rest of your life you can never deny being a cocksucker. C'est la vie.

For those that don't know…

Once upon a time haka parties were a feature of graduation/capping celebrations at most NZ Unis. Students, mostly engineers and science/footy types, would dress up in grass skirts, silly hats (top hats were all the go), and fake facial tatts. Then they'd sally…

I knew there was a reason I liked you. But if you want to change your mind about some modern stuff, I've got some good recommendations, Deborah.

Not so much for home use. But I always enjoy a good live performance. There's nothing quite like friends, strangers, loud music, a…

asymmetry – the sex industry is predominantly staffed by females. Yes, many women do choose, but why don't as many men "choose" the same career? (and that's "as many" – there are male strippers and gigolos but far fewer, and I don't believe that the numbers would…

and stefanie powers was seriously "80s hot".

lisa miller again>

That said what do you think of Wagner and his representaion of Aryan ideology? :)That said what do you think of Wagner and his representaion of Aryan ideology? :)

That's another thing about which…

That said what do you think of Wagner and his representaion of Aryan ideology? :)

It's very popular in heavy metal?

Truce?

Hardly needs saying. Of course.

That said what do you think of Wagner and his representaion of Aryan ideology? :)

That's unfair, Deborah. It's a bit hard to have a meaningful discussion if I can't make an observation to the contrary.

I feel really snippy about this, Russell, because reading back through the thread, virtually everyone was making a huge effort to avoid generalisations.

__But you put me in the…

Tarred n feathered :)

Roundly rebutted sounds nicer.

Makes me feel a bit more erudite by association, I must say!

Too modest, Jackie. You're erudite as it is.

Far better we examine the various power relationships, like I/O saying he knows past strippers who contribute to PA, making sure they know he knows – a little emotional blackmail goes along way.

OMIGOD!!! This is sooooo wrong Michael. But seemingly not the only misunderstanding you've had this weekend. I…

Heck Jackie I feel you've vindicated my point to Danielle.

The raunch culture/expressions of sexuality, are more safe now than before (at least in the middle classes).
Where society is disadvantaged as a whole young women will be more vulnerable, but so too the guys are…

I am very aware and grateful of the gains that were won by feminists in the past and I agree that you can't take any of it for granted. I am sometimes shocked by some people's lack of knowledge on the subject and it is then that I feel…

Deborah I accept your view of what you've written. I think guys & gals can traverse those issues with less danger of missunderstandings.

michael, not entirely sure where your accusations against deborah are coming from. other than a perhaps deliberate misinterpretation of that comment waaay back on another page?

You have acknowledge the slogan "All men are Rapists" is wrong,(still held onto by Deborah)

THAT IS NOT CORRECT! I DO NOT, AND HAVE NEVER, HELD THAT VIEW.

In my view '70s wave of feminism was primarily one of…

Deborah you're saying all young men are rapists, and thereby that all men raped when they were younger – that is a really ugly and unjustifiable view of the world.

Michael, that's a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I said NOTHING like that whatsoever.

Here's what I said.

Another…

The vast majority of what you've attributed to the '70s can be attributed to the suffrajets.

No, it can't. The suffragettes concentrated on exactly what their name implies: suffrage. The vote. In fact, suffragettes often had what we would consider quite reactionary ideas about what the vote would mean: 'ladylike'…

I'm not really interested in answering for the 'crimes' of 1970s feminism, since that movement gave…

Deborah & Danielle you both seem to mean something different from the phrase. Deborah you're saying all young men are rapists, and thereby that all men raped when they were younger – that is a really ugly and unjustifiable view of the world. Danielle this…

(Oh, it's 'warrant', isn't it. I'm correcting my Jay-Z quote, post-post.)

Maybe I should post the whole verse so everyone knows what we're yakking about ...

The year's '94 and my trunk is raw
In my rear view mirror is the mother fuckin' law
I got two choices y'all pull…

Yeah, I know. I've analysed that song every which way but loose.

Cool. Are you familiar with the 'Voodoo Problems' Hendrix mash-up? Totally wicked.

But there's a larger point there, which is that a 'pussy' is a bad, weak thing, and a pussy is what women have. It's not what…

Now once upon a time not too long ago
A nigga like myself had to strong arm a ho
This is not a ho in the sense of havin a pussy
But a pussy havin no God Damn sense, try and push me

So the ho he's talking about is…

For example, I love Jay-Z's '99 Problems'. But the chorus, 'I got 99 problems and a bitch ain't one' isn't really something that a right-on third-wave feminist like myself wants to, um, 'reclaim' in any meaningful sense. Sigh.

Love the tune, hate the lyrics? Bit of a bummer, I can…

my concern is not, russell, about how many girls are dressing to fit the raunch culture image. it's about how that culture is effecting their self-esteem, their choices, and their ability to achieve. i'm not interested in their moral state; i'm interested in their physical and mental well-being.

Once again,…

The "All men are rapists" is a very annoying unifem-type argument

Yes, it is, if it's used in the way you're talking about. However, people using this as an example of inflexible 70s feminist argument miss the point,…

and a slight pedantry from me

Please, Che. Pendantry ...

I'd be interested to know how Che thinks his theory of group identity (you can't proclaim yourself a member, other members have to acknowledge you) works [in gender politics].

nah, my theory is one of nationalism and cultural/ethnic identity. it could play out in relation to gendered identity,…

That's unfair, Deborah. It's a bit hard to have a meaningful discussion if I can't make an observation to the contrary.

I feel really snippy about this, Russell, because reading back through the thread, virtually everyone was making a huge effort to avoid generalisations.

But you put me in the…

"The young man propositions them, and gets turned down, or comes on too strong, and the young woman feels forced into a situation she doesn't really want to be in (in the worst cases, we call this rape)."

The 1970s Feminist "All Men are Rapist". Isn't accepted today as valid…

That's very positive of you, but even here on PAS, when some of us have been trying to express our worries, we have been told that we are making (invalid) generalisations...

That's unfair, Deborah. It's a bit hard to have a meaningful discussion if I can't make an observation to…

I'm told that many, if not most, teenage boys and young men think / fantasize a lot about sex.

great irony.

I'm sort of with your Hobbesian argument over freewill. There's is a basic asymmetry – the sex industry is predominantly staffed by females. Yes, many women do choose, but…

Speaking for myself: not really. Kinda sorta. Yes in the sense that all kinds of rules of society could be characterised as mutual "let's pretend", including gender, which I believe is socially constructed.

Describing someone as their preferred gender when I don't…

we now have this weird mishmash that's neither oppression nor enlightenment

I've spent two days rambling when this is all I really wanted to say. Thank you, Heather.

does that mean that all this "empowerment" is so much hot air?

Ditto, Che

so you could argue that women or men…

I'm left thinking of Mata Hari "Harlot, yes, but traitor, never" (although I'm not calling her any names – greater good & all that).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/4/story.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10459723

Damien you are sooo going to get lynched (again?)

d., you do know how small this town is, don't you?

That's very positive of you, but even here on PAS, when some of us have been trying to express our worries, we have been told that we are making (invalid) generalisations...

That's unfair, Deborah. It's a bit hard to have a meaningful discussion if I can't make an observation to…

The 1970s Feminist "All Men are Rapist". Isn't accepted today as valid…

Having said that, I couldn't think off too many political reporters down here who would read that and not think it was referring to them, with a smug smile on their face. They're a breed unto themselves.

Damien you are sooo going to get lynched (again?) the next time you…

There's a war between the rich the poor
a war between the man and the woman
(de do do, de do do)
Come on back to the war....

Go Leonard Coen.

Great discussion, don't…

What a terribly confusing and risky position for young men to be in.

meh.

just lift the taboo on masturbation. girls thinking that it's "grubby" is counter-productive.

all that energy has to go somewhere.

i would like to think that we could create the space for women to express their unhappiness with sexual images & exploitation without having to take the kind of flak they do currently (not here on PAS, of course!)

That's very positive of you,…

To be really brief, it requires information ('you can freely choose between A and B, but I'm not telling you what they are'), and it requires freedom from non-logical non-inherent consequences.

and therein lies the problem – it requires freedom from consequences. you can have all the information in the…

choice is one of those chimera western society loves to bang on about (no offence intended emma).

None taken, Che. I did actually write a really long paragraph about real choice and what it requires, but I figured I'd been banging on enough here and someone else was well capable…

however, a friend of mine who used to teach in women's studies put "choice" into perspective. she related "choice" to the practice of suttee

choice is one of those chimera western society loves to bang on about (no offence intended emma). the thing is though, we're always constrained in our…

another point of view

exotic dancing is after all an old art

I tell you what it is Russell, from personal experience, the camera definitely magnifies any imperfections you might have.

Of course. I try not to see myself on screen and think "where's the guy's teeth?" ...

I like you look into the body politic.

Most women I know who have had plastic surgery have had breast reductions.

Two exceptions: One sales rep used to have surgery at least once a year. I think it's actually how she kept her job as long as she did-…

My commiserations Mr Christie.

:) Well, to be honest, the original copy had "one political reporter" but the subs removed it, clearly thinking it would be too obvious.

Having said that, I couldn't think off too many political reporters down here who would read that and not think it was…

In Wellington there is at least...one reporter that I would never touch because I would feel as though I’d slept with all my best friends as a result, and that’s just too weird."

My commiserations Mr Christie.

:-)

What rankles with me is the idea that it is men who have done this.

well yes. when you look at female genital mutilation, the ones doing the mutilating are in fact women. and the foot binding of females in china was also done by women. and the one pulling…

Most guys I know (pardon my use of cliche) do not want to have sex with boy-thin chicks. Curveacious (sp?) women are just fine, thank…

I also don't agree that all women who have ever been to a strip club are being peer pressured into it, or are only there for research purposes for that matter!

Neither do I. In fact I tried very hard to avoid generalisations like that. My big issue is what…

That maybe feeling/dressing a certain way (once you have a choice) maybe for your own pleasure but modelling etc is for others.

One of the grimmer evenings I've had (much more so than Mermaids, oddly enough) was a modelling talent quest in the 1990s sponsored by a computer company (on…

Rather than a continuum of clothing to stripping.

I see it from say modelling to stripping & beyond. Kylie Bax & Rachel Hunter for example, once models then strippers.
That maybe feeling/dressing…

Yeah, that was me. And it was a muddled little blurt, so let me clarify that I wasn't saying that your empowered/ironic/old-school stripper is suffering from false consciousness. I was just noting a similarity between…

Does she count as a women in this discussion?

Oh, FFS, should there be any debate? Of course she's a woman ...

Of course, reading again, I think the emphasis of Che's question was on the 'outed' part – which Georgina Beyer certainly wasn't – and I should have read…

i was thinking more of say, julia guillard being outed.

don't agree, Russell, that the little girls at venues like The Big Day Out aren't chasing after boys like they used to. Of course they are, they're just less open about it.

Sheesh. I'm not going to get far if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong every time…

Not sure if Georgina Beyer counts in this context as being a female MP,

She certainly counts by virtue of being at the receiving end of gender discrimination. The thoughts behind my original post were driven in part by how the trans-gender community has also fought for recognition.

But to back track a bit, someone (Stephen Judd?) made a comment about false consciousness.

I find it obnoxiousness to tell a woman (or a man) that what she (I'm going to ditch the careful gender equity in pronouns now, and just use 'she' – a conscious…

I think the very nature of the sex industry means that a woman will always have a problem getting into a high-profile role when there are men out there who have paid money to see her naked and gyrating in their laps.

..oh, I guess I inadvertently showed my colours…

my gut tells me that those 40 years of apparent progress in gender equality would evaporate. does that mean that all this "empowerment" is so much hot air?

Not sure if Georgina Beyer counts in this context as being a female MP, I'd have thought yes, but she was there,…

they see it all around them, they want it, the significant adults in their lives buy it for them.

This close to using the phrase "I blame the parents". Next thing you know I'll be complaining about people being 'soft on crime'. Seriously, though, I have a daughter, I have…

my gut tells me that those 40 years of apparent progress in gender equality would evaporate. does that mean that all this "empowerment" is so much hot air?

..I don't know if it proves it's all hot air, but it's a good example of an issue that's being both resolved…

the benefit of a bogan past. you get to see the real side of the object up on the stage.

That's just modesty, isn't it? I'd be more surprised at a 9 year old boy or girl who still wanted to get changed with no cover.

__Most…

I'm going to take a timeout because I don't want to sidetrack the thread by getting male-defensive (as I've done). I think the Ladies are making better points ....

I'd sort of be done with a thread on sexual politics that men didn't feel comfortable contributing to. This:

So Emma's…

people we're still moving forward. Heck, we've seen the complete transformation of centuries of gender oppression in just 40 years, hands up who thought it was going to be that easy? :)

sure, but could i see some responses to a test?

when rudd is outed as having been to…