Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Absence of Malice

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  • mark taslov,

    Just checking if anyone was there; r No more gin* for mark.

    *an alcoholic liquor obtained by distilling grain mash with juniper berries. not a stationary prime mover having a drive shaft rotated by horizontal beams pulled by horses walking in a circle.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Ahh, isn't gin a depressant? I mean the juniper liquor, though the other was probably also depressing for both horses and proletariat.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    Ahh, isn't gin a depressant? I mean the juniper liquor, though the other was probably also depressing for both horses and proletariat.

    Victory gin?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    Ahh, isn't gin a depressant?

    Damn right it's a depressant Sacha, I've moved onto White Russians with Malibu this morning.

    With all due respect Emma, the assumption that people contribute here simply to 'piss people off' is a tad fanciful. People contribute to express opinion and share knowledge. Despite differences in opinion, contributors generally read with open eyes, without resorting to easy put downs in the safe knowledge that the posting box at the bottom protects their right of reply. their right to clarify and their right to construe. So, to be sure Emma, I posted neither to make a point nor to piss people off but to clarify on an oversight on my part in relation to a point I felt I had not made with due care previously. A point made in respect to the definition of respect. I feel there's nothing too inappropriate about posting on this subject in light of the origins of the word;

    1300–50; (n.) ME (< OF) < L respectus action of looking back, consideration, regard, equiv. to respec-, var. s. of respicere to look back (re- re- + specere to look) + -tus suffix of v. action; (v.) < L respectus ptp. of respicere

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/respect

    First, as suggested by its derivation from the Latin respicere, which means “to look back at” or “to look again,” respect is a particular mode of apprehending the object: the person who respects something pays attention to it and perceives it differently from someone who does not and responds to it in light of that perception.

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#ConRes

    Looking back at some of the quibbles levied at my presupposed misuse of the term, I drunkenly feel morally obligated to ensure a clarity of understanding is reached.

    So Sacha, if I may;

    most of us make distinctions between creative use of language and the more precise kind you need when arguing a point

    I do not argue that distinctions need to be made, The distinctions we make are a personal venture, and usually unconscious. However I'm not wholly in disagreement that the distinction required in this case is between creative use of a language and that other type you so eruditely elucidate. I feel the distinction required is simply in computing the intended and most relevant interpretation of the verb 'respect' as used in the post that lured you.
    Generally speaking, the collected reader is able to distinguish and interpret through many shades of meaning, acclimatizing the use or placement of given words with their trajectory. The world of language is not a clamor of boxes, each seeking your full and undivided attention, but a series; a continuum of signposts. Sacha I was hastened by your posts, to put this down. Particularly your post;

    Mark, it's two quite different concepts being labelled with the same name. Just look at the difference in the modifiers in those definitions - "esteem, worth, excellence, quality" vs "deference, privilege, acceptance, acknowledgement".

    As if the these 'two quite different concepts' were somehow inconveniently 'labelled' in defiance of the greater good. Quite different? Or merely different ends of the same piece of twine? If we need look more closely at the origin of the word;

    respect (n.)
    c.1300, from L. respectus "regard," lit. "act of looking back at one," pp. of respicere "look back at, regard, consider," from re- "back" + specere "look at" (see scope (1)). The verb is 1542, from the noun. Meaning "treat with deferential regard or esteem" is from 1560; respectable "worthy of respect" is from 1586 (implied in respected).

    Observe that the deferential use of 'respect' predated the 'distinct' attitudinal definition (that some would claim is mandatory), by 26 years: The interpretation 'worthy of respect' following logically from the initial simple respect.

    It wasn't left there, the cavalry of languages past and present was let loose at the speed of vomit. Sacha, (I heartily thank you for this) you encouraged me to think of mana and how someone gets it;

    I encourage you to think of "mana" and how someone gets it.</quote

    I quite congenially interpreted that you referred to the maori term 'mana', not the Turkish meaning, meaning 'meaning', nor the Coatian definition; 'defect'. 'Mana'

    <quote> From Polynesian religion, and its modern use is a result of the popularization of the concept by anthropology and, to a great extent, by certain varieties of fantasy fiction. In Polynesian culture (e.g., Hawaiian, Māori), mana is analogous to respect, but it combines elements of respect, authority, power, and prestige.

    http://links.mana-the-movie.com/Mana.html

    A word that has very little bearing on my initial intended meaning, we do have 'authority' and 'power' in there, but it's a noun. Nonetheless your post was educational, in terms of gauging why some people felt 'respect' was inadequate in my initial post. Doubtless, a different word, a different inference, from a different language.

    Now Danielle,

    That's not respect. That's fear.

    and Eddie Clark,

    Ha! I am proved correct. Mark, you're conflating obedience and respect. A certain about of obedience to authority is indeed required for a properly ordered society (the degree of obedience is very much up for debate). That ISN'T the same as respect. To use a slightly extreme example, I wouldn't respect a hypothetical homophobic cop in the slightest, but I might well be obedient in order to avoid negative consequences to myself.

    The Stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy seeks to distinguish some interpretations of 'respect'. These are not distinctions between the creative and 'argumentative'(definition 3) use., but between the behavioral and attitudinal uses. Here are some examples given;

    We might speak of drivers respecting the speed limit, hostile forces as respecting a cease fire agreement, or AIDS as not respecting national borders, and in such cases we can be referring simply to behavior which avoids violation of or interference with some boundary, limit, or rule, without any reference to attitudes, feelings, intentions, or dispositions, and even, as in the case of the AIDS virus, without imputing agency (Bird 2004)

    Danielle and Eddie, no i did not mean fear, I wasn't conflating. I do not dispute the later attitudinal variation of the term. I merely seek that my use of the initial intended behavioral meaning be respected by my peers, not in attitude(obviously), but at least in behavior(if possible).

    So to my initial post, and the distinctly passive use of 'respect';

    When you breed a culture where the teacher is not respected, regardless of how good or bad they are, you not only undermine your own child's education, but by peer corroboration, the education of their fellow students too.

    In light of the various forces, encountered by this teacher without prestige over the course of this engaging tit for tat, summed up quite poignantly by Mr. Eddie Clark of Wellington with his decidedly eloquent;

    No I just think you're wrong, Mark

    My point has been duly illustrated.

    Sorry to interrupt Emma, have a good one.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Victory gin?

    Nice. It would appear so. :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    This is just my personal inference, but does anyone else spot the irony in a very lengthy post on respect that (I think) pours a ton of charmless scorn onto other posters?

    I suppose I can now consider myself educated on the etymology of the word 'respect'. But Mark, the general tone of your post makes me really wonder whether on balance I haven't actually been lessened by the reading thereof.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    With all due respect Emma, the assumption that people contribute here simply to 'piss people off' is a tad fanciful.

    Mark, I didn't mean people, I meant you in particular. Why? Two things. The tone of your post as I read it was snarky, sarcastic and exaggerated. And two, you'd already said this on this thread:

    i really should stop with these tenuous arguments, playing devil's advocate's assistant too long is hard work

    Those were the reasons I suspected that you might not have been serious, and that your post was a deliberate attempt to needle people.

    These are the only circumstances in which I have much time for people who 'play devil's advocate' (or devil's advocaat): if they say, before they start, something like 'just to play devil's advocate for a moment, what if...'. Otherwise it just reads like arguing in bad faith, which is something trolls do.

    So if I've found that someone is arguing points they don't actually believe, I'm more reluctant to engage with them in future, when they might be serious, but I can't tell. You've also made sarcastic remarks about other posters, and inferred things about me that simply weren't true. I have no problems with people bringing different perspectives and asking difficult questions - I'd encourage it - but I'd prefer it was done with honesty and respect. And I mean 'respect' the way Danielle, Eddie, Isabel and I interpreted the word.

    So before I sit down on the other thread and explain for the fourth time why it actually isn't easy to distinguish between erotica and pornography, I'd like you to mull that, because otherwise I'm simply not going to consider it worth my time.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4650 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Ahh, isn't gin a depressant?

    From personal experience, I'd say gin is a gigglant.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4650 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    devil's advocaat

    I like that too. :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    With all due respect

    And I love the way people say that just before they're about to be disrespectful, in general.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    And I love the way people say that just before they're about to be disrespectful, in general.

    I've very occasionally used 'with all the respect that's due to you' instead.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4650 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And there's the crux to me of the whole argument - what is due.

    I'd say the balance has shifted historically from a role demanding respect, regardless of the performance or personality of the incumbent, to it being earned in the execution of a role or the living of a life. Our grandparents have a very different understanding of respect than our children do.

    Mark, please do find some non-German perspectives on what mana means. At least re-read (re-spect?) Keri's brief post. It does encompass and shed light on a lot of what you were talking about.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    With all due respect

    It's odd when people say: "I was humbled by the adoration, I won"

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    I'd say the balance has shifted historically from a role demanding respect, regardless of the performance or personality of the incumbent, to it being earned in the execution of a role or the living of a life. Our grandparents have a very different understanding of respect than our children do.

    Case in point: To anyone who whines about tall poppy lopping, what do Sam Morgan, Stephen Tindall, Lloyd Morrison and Peter Maire have that Rod Deane, Michael Fay, David Richwhite, and Christine Rankin don't? The former have earned respect, and the latter seem to think of it as a birthright.

    Here's some required reading (especially for economics students):

    Brian Gaynor piece from Granny Herald: Tall poppy status has to be earned

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5415 posts Report Reply

  • Robyn Gallagher,

    I've always thought that people who claim to be victims of "tall poppy syndrome" are those who, after having achieved some success, seem to think they should therefore be off-limits for any criticism, and conclude that the criticism is coming from people who are envious of them, not that they've done anything worth being criticised.

    Raglan • Since Nov 2006 • 1946 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    I thought that in NZ a tall poppy was whoever a certain kind of taxi driver thought would make a better job of running the country than elected politicians. In the 90s I was told that it was the "Warehouse guy" - presumably Stephen Tindall. A decade later it was the "TradeMe guy".

    I've found that the best way to deal with taxi drivers who use their passengers as a captive audience to spruik the virtues of an appointed dictatorship of the elite is to point down a street that you happen to be passing and say something like "My cousin used to live down there." After that they usually leave you alone.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    point down a street that you happen to be passing and say something like "My cousin used to live down there." After that they usually leave you alone.

    How on earth does that work? In what city are you cabbing?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    How on earth does that work? In what city are you cabbing?

    I heard the "Warehouse guy" line from a driver in Auckland in 1997. To be honest, I've only tried the cousin line in Sydney. Delivered in a slightly "medicated" tone, it's a sure-fire conversation killer.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I suspect the answer lies in the tone. :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Amy Gale,

    I cheated once in a test in form two. I happened to catch a glimpse of my neighbour's paper. His answer was different to mine and I thought he know more about the subject than me so I changed my answer. Turns out my original answer was correct all along.

    OMG totally snap, down to the "form two" and the "only time I have ever".

    (Except my neighbour was a "she, girls' schools being what they are.)

    The subject, even the question, are seared into my brain forever.

    tha Ith • Since May 2007 • 471 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings,

    Disturbing is when you (and a friend obviously) are half-naked and getting sweaty in the back seat of a taxi and the driver still persists in attempting to engage your interest in the rugby.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 719 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    Possibly attempting to preserve the upholstery?

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1886 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Lolnui - linger, you are a joy.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    The subject, even the question, are seared into my brain forever.

    I've had a lingering belief in the power of silly ditties in memory ever since a 1989 Economic Studies test in which my friend and I conferred afterwards to check we'd got the same on the multi choice section.

    The answers to the six questions were C, B, D, C, C, D.

    Which I still remember because straight after the test my friend asked me "Did you get cabbage, banana, dog, cabbage, cabbage, dog?"

    Er, as you were.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Kerry Weston,

    Kyle? Oh, he's that cabbage cabbage dog guy on Public Address.

    ;-)

    Manawatu • Since Jan 2008 • 494 posts Report Reply

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