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Speaker: Talking past each other: Ideological silos and research

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  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Rebecca Gray,

    I’m doing the virtual internet equivalent of popping back into the room in order to throw you a high five for that earlier comment, and then running away.

    Yes, gotta say, linger gets it. :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Here is a link to the lecture at Victoria University last week "Is there an appetite for a sugar tax in NZ?"

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3226 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    One thing I have noticed is that, because many interact with other forms of communication

    And we regularly seem to get a couple of pages of "but you said on Yabber", "she started it with what she said on Fugwob" nonsense that possibly makes sense to the three people having this cross-media battle, but just pollutes the discussion for everyone else. And often in a derailing way. Fuxake people, pick a venue and have it out, then leave it there.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1233 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Moz,

    we regularly seem to get a couple of pages of “but you said on Yabber”, “she started it with what she said on Fugwob”

    I'm certainly not interested in that either, for the record, WHICH IS WHY I DON'T LINK MY SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS HERE.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Moz,

    but just pollutes the discussion for everyone else. And often in a derailing way. Fuxake people, pick a venue and have it out, then leave it there.

    That would be good.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Latest offence taking breaking "News"
    Farmers apologises for 'hurt and offence' of Mother's Day email

    "Your mother sent us her wish list".

    I clicked on it expecting to see something like "I wish I hadn't died" but it just turned out to be some kind of promo for that Mother exploiting sales day..
    Do these copy writing people ever consider anything that is not about them or their tiny world?.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Russell Brown,

    pick a venue and have it out, then leave it there.

    That would be good.

    I have to admit I don't feel comfortable (safe) knowing that discussions about the discussion are going on elsewhere.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I have to admit I don’t feel comfortable (safe) knowing that discussions about the discussion are going on elsewhere.

    Its a shame but there always has been and always will be people that will talk behind your back, I think it comes from an insecurity thing, if they are too frightened to say it to your face then its not worth taking on board. I kind of pity them and let it be.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Carol Stewart, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I agree, Bart.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2008 • 828 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    I think it comes from an insecurity thing, if they are too frightened to say it to your face then its not worth taking on board. I kind of pity them and let it be.

    A number of women, repeatedly in this thread and elsewhere, have said they no longer feel safe contributing here for a variety of reasons. But no, go ahead and call them chicken and don't bother examining why that might be. That'll totally help.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Carol Stewart,

    I agree, Bart.

    Yes, I'm sorry Carol. I have had this feedback. Obviously, it would be silly to even try and have a "don't talk about PA outside PA rule", but the element of bad faith in talking smack about individuals grieves me.

    I did invite suggestions the last time a thread melted down like this, but they were so contradictory it was hard to know what to do.

    I do ask that people show respect for each other and assume each other's good faith. It's hard to have something like this work without that basis.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I think it's sad that a discussion about public health has turned into personal attacks.

    Also if anyone wants to talk about ideological silos talking past each other, I think it'd still be a worthwhile discussion. I'd initially understood the food/health policy thing to just be an example of a separate point, but .... well, yeah.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1141 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Here is a link to the lecture at Victoria University last week “Is there an appetite for a sugar tax in NZ?”

    Woot! An on-topic comment!

    Thanks Hilary :-)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    We don’t get to be either all the time so maybe agreeing to disagree could dampen the animosity.

    Thanks Sofie. I'd settle for people simply being able to disagree without it going to character. That reliably becomes the opposite of discussion.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    This gut flora stuff is the key to much of us. I'm fascinated by the research.

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2899 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to ,

    Don’t mean to Offend but your characters appear to be, how shall I put it, large boned?.

    Ah, Steve. Keeping it classy there as usual, I see.

    If you'd like me to say what I say on Twitter about this place here, I'll certainly do it. It's mainly silly gifs and you probably wouldn't enjoy it much, which is why I vent to my *friends*, who are somewhat less likely to make fat jokes at me, treat me like I'm crazy, and call me a coward.

    I was trying, very hard, to keep my points clear and to disagree without this sort of thing. It's something I've always strived for at PA and as I said, I've commented here for nearly ten years. If you consider how I've been treated in this thread appropriate, Russell, then, I dunno. Thanks a lot, I guess?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Danielle,

    Steve’s joke was clearly about all the capital letters your last few posts have been using, but I agree, it was unhelpful. I kind of read past it, otherwise I’d just have deleted it, because I really don’t need it. I’ll delete it after I post this comment. I;m sorry I didn't catch it sooner.

    But please stop saying I called you crazy. I actually did hold off posting the links to the cognitive impairment papers because I was worried about the response. Honest truth. I realise you’ve said some pretty harsh things about that elsewhere – as you are entitled to, and usual, I do my best not to look – but that’s it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Steve, really not helping.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Hebe,

    This gut flora stuff is the key to much of us. I’m fascinated by the research.

    I've been following the microbiome story for a while now, and tweeting most of the links to it that I read.

    It is pretty clear that the science is still in it's infancy and a lot of studies being done are not to a terribly high standard. Jonathan Eisen is someone to follow if you are seriously interested in microbiome science and criticism of the field.

    With that caveat in mind there have been some fascinating studies done in mice that link microbiome to weight gain and weight loss. There have also been interesting studies suggesting the microbiome in mice and humans suffers from jetlag! There are lots of studies showing feacal transplants (sadly the ones delivered to the top of the bowel eewww) can help with some serious chronic illnesses.

    What's relevant to this topic is there have been studies showing the microbiome is pretty dramatically dependent on diet. I don't think anyone is brave enough to conclude (yet) that high-sugar high-processed food diets promote a microbiome that favours weight gain but folks have shown some pretty interesting differences that suggest big changes in the microbiome have correlations with metabolic diseases.

    But all that must be considered with the caveat that the science is new and some of those studies haven't been done by the best groups in the field so may not stand up to replication. Also by their very nature these studies are mostly correlative and do not show cause and effect. Nevertheless most of the folks working in the field say they personally have changed their diet to promote microbiome diversity even when they aren't willing to put anything in a journal paper.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hebe,

    This gut flora stuff is the key to much of us. I’m fascinated by the research.

    I was about to close the thread because it had degenerated into end-stage talking about talking ... but if you want to talk about that, I can keep it running :-)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Nevertheless most of the folks working in the field say they personally have changed their diet to promote microbiome diversity even when they aren’t willing to put anything in a journal paper.

    Hell, that it is interesting.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Carol Stewart, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Nevertheless most of the folks working in the field say they personally have changed their diet to promote microbiome diversity even when they aren’t willing to put anything in a journal paper.

    Interesting Bart. What sorts of dietary changes are these? Probiotic yoghurt would be an obvious one I guess.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2008 • 828 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    But all that must be considered with the caveat that the science is new and some of those studies haven’t been done by the best groups in the field so may not stand up to replication. Also by their very nature these studies are mostly correlative and do not show cause and effect. Nevertheless most of the folks working in the field say they personally have changed their diet to promote microbiome diversity even when they aren’t willing to put anything in a journal paper.

    Interesting too. I have also noted the wavering nature of some of this science. And I reckon changing diet can tend to be explosive (sorry, not). I also note that some of the hard science intersects with natural health theories and practice,.

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2899 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Carol Stewart,

    What sorts of dietary changes are these? Probiotic yoghurt would be an obvious one I guess.

    The comments, and these are from interviews on the science podcasts I listen to, say diversity seems to be beneficial. So you get diversity from eating lots of different foods. But in particular anything fermented, kimchi and yoghurt but also other fermented foods. They also suggested making your own bread but I don't understand how anything survives the baking process.

    You get gut microbiome diversity from gardening, getting your hands dirty. And from eating food straight from the garden. Dirt is good :). You get gut microbiome diversity from having a dog!

    So for me, the way I've tried to adapt my diet is to try and avoid falling into a rut. Also try to eat fresh salad greens etc and yeah some yoghurt. And I also try and limit highly processed foods. I'm not great at doing those things but I try.

    BTW they also point out that almost all the "probiotic" foods/pills etc are just large doses of brewers yeast (Saccharomyces) which is kind of pointless and usually quite expensive compared to just eating brewers yeast (which I don't think is worthwhile either).

    Bear in mind also that while I've read widely I am a plant developmental/molecular biologist and not an expert on the gut microbiome so my opinion is my opinion.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Hebe,

    I also note that some of the hard science intersects with natural health theories and practice

    Yeah my impression is these scientists are working quite hard to stay in the science arena which is why any advice they are willing to give is strictly prefaced with "this is what I do and not my professional recommendation" because they know the data is still too uncertain.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

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