Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Undie Wankers

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  • Martin Lindberg,

    The generalisations on this thread are getting a bit overwhelming.

    and

    Whether or not students are wealthy, either on their own, or through family money, or poor, shouldn't we be calling for them to get the same treatment as any other dickhead that drinks too much and does stupid shit

    Indeed - what Kyle said...

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 802 posts Report Reply

  • Dinah Dunavan,

    This student might have learned a valuable lesson.
    I think his mum's comment is wonderful.

    Dunedin • Since Jun 2008 • 186 posts Report Reply

  • st ephen,

    Too many generalisations? How about data:

    The first two fines dished out for breaching the liquor ban (night before the Undie 500 I think) went to a process worker and his mill hand flatmate. Pa will be chortling into his cognac at the Club. Not.
    The idiot who jumped in the fire was a student at Telford (a polytech for farm-hands).

    I'm sure that plenty of stereotypical rich white kids will be appearing in court over the next few days. Drunk kids make bad choices. Especially when egged on by those with less to lose.

    dunedin • Since Jul 2008 • 254 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    The majority of students on Castle street are there by choice, with the flats tenanted as early as July of the preceding year. If they were poverty stricken they would be flatting in the NEV for half the price.

    Flatting on Castle street doesn't make you rich (or white, or a prick).

    Otago flatting culture is the envy of students all over New Zealand who would love to have the social lifestyle that Otago has. Castle Street is the center of that culture.

    If the (rich) street you live in was a determining factor for the penalty you should get when you cause trouble then we should be looking at Remuera, Kelburn, Fendalton, etc, not a slum in North Dunedin.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    really most of them are first time offenders and they ought to be treated as other first time offenders - no special perks either way ....

    The problem isn't "they never learn" ... because they're probably bright smart people, when they sober up .... it's that they don;t teach the next generation (in this case a generation is a year or two) what not to do ....

    A lot of life's lessons are learned by screwing up and suffering the consequences ... especially as a teenager - they have to make mistakes and bang up against the world a bit to figure out where the rough bits are - the trick is to let them do this without getting arrested (or shot, or pregnant or with a habit, ....)

    As a parent of teenagers I know it's hard - they wont listen to you (they actually mostly do, it just takes a shock or two sometimes for that message to stick).

    We moved back to NZ (Dunedin even) because we felt it IS a safer place to be a teenager and screw up a little - no one's going to shoot you in a street brawl, you can run away etc etc. We wanted somewhere we could feel comfortable giving them more independence - and mostly we're very happy we did.

    Probably the one thing we didn't count on was the lower drinking age (my son has been legal most of his 7th form year) and I think it does factor into this a lot - the only let kids under 20 buy booze to consume in pubs idea would go a long way to quell this sort of issue and give the kids a set of 'training wheels' to get them started - it would also make alcohol a lot less available thigh school kids

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    As I understand it those first two fines were for people who weren't actually at Castle St - they'd just breached the liquor ban ..... they probably pleaded out to get the whole thing out of the way - kids who want to get diversion etc are going to take a different tack, hire lawyers etc etc which will take months and months

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    __but referring to these students as white, rich and privileged__

    Er, because that's what a large majority of them are ?

    [and]

    I went back to university a few years ago and the harsh reality is that most are from good, solid, middle-class backgrounds and either went to private schools or upper-decile state schools.

    Unless something's changed in the last seven years, it's still generally true that access to university is strongly correlated to socioeconomic status/background. Lower socioeconomic status individuals, particularly kids, don't go on to university since they don't complete school. When they do engage in post-compulsory education and training, they generally enrol at a polytechnic (doing sub-degree qualifications) or in industry training. This is true in Australia and most OECD countries also.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Prince,

    Your data might be a bit selective, st ephen. The third person mentioned in the odt article is a 19 year old female student who apparently went to Wellington Girls College, which is a decile 10 school.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2008 • 12 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Oh sure, I agree with that. I came late to this topic and after reading through 100-odd post in one sitting I was amazed at the assumptions made about these students. Possibly our host set the tone by referring to "daddy's membership at the Northern Club".

    I was intentionally being provocative. But I have met people like that and they annoy me. A lot.

    Unlike a few of us here, I'm not desperate to see these idiots strung up, and I think they should catch the breaks before the court as any other young person. It was just the "on noes! our careers will be harmed!" from some of them that made think: perhaps you should have thought of that first, you jerks.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    The idiot who jumped in the fire was a student at Telford (a polytech for farm-hands).

    "Damn...
    (said through gritted teeth as clenched fist bangs the table)
    Those poor white folks for having kids that can just blend in with those rich white folks kids, ruin their reputations and get off Scot-F'nFree"

    Sure, Mike Mechanic may not lose his job for drunken charge of a riot, but Andrew Accountant with a view to parnership with Taylor McLachlan probably will

    tee hee

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1890 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Graham,

    Our neighbour's son (18 year old Maori, who lives with him mum not his Dad, our neighbour) recently spent 6 months in jail on a drugs charge (possession) which was dropped. You can bet if his daddy was a rich white man he wouldn't have waited a trial date, and eventual dropping of all charges, in prison. So what are the chances of the boy becoming a mongrel mob member now, do you think.

    And yet I really don't think the problem is with how the privileged white kids are being treated. Equality doesn't require injustice for all.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 118 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    On a tangent. Our neighbour's son (18 year old Maori, who lives with him mum not his Dad, our neighbour) recently spent 6 months in jail on a drugs charge (possession) which was dropped. You can bet if his daddy was a rich white man he wouldn't have waited a trial date, and eventual dropping of all charges, in prison. So what are the chances of the boy becoming a mongrel mob member now, do you think.

    Six months on remand on a simple possession charge that was later dropped? That's so utterly appalling as to be newsworthy. And you're right, it wouldn't have happened to a kid whose parents had resources. Or a student who threw a brick at the cops.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    The idiot who jumped in the fire was a student at Telford (a polytech for farm-hands).

    I should point out that it doesn't just teach people to be farm hands. I'm sure there's a fair few rich white farmer's children going to Telford, but the ones with serious farm running aspirations are probably at Lincoln.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Heather Gaye,

    I'm with Kyle. For starters, I just don't think there are enough rich privileged families in NZ. I wager the majority of otago students come from middle class families where the parents are topping up their kids' expenses because it has to be done. That's what my parents did for me. Granted, it didn't occur to me at the time that an education was something I was lucky to afford, but I also wasn't hooning around with my parents' credit card, or flipping the bird or the bottle at authority figures.

    The generalisations over who's able to afford a tertiary qualification hold, but just because a bunch of students caused a riot, it doesn't automatically follow that they did it because they're rich snotty brats with a chip on their shoulder. Probably they're snotty brats. Possibly they're rich. Speaking from a little experience, likely it's the newly-left-home teen dream to be involved in something of a subversive event - especially one that's been hyped up by the police and the media - without any forethought of how ugly it may very well get. Absolutely the instigators should be punished according to their crimes. But wow... the judgement in this thread is weirdly equal & opposite to the us&them mentality in the herald your views column - a sort of liberal self-loathing, or survivors' guilt or something. Although perhaps it's a sweeping generalisation to presume that the kind of liberal intellectuals that make up PA's membership are more likely to be financially secure graduates...

    & regarding all the talk about how they *must* be well-off because of the cost of tertiary study: in an economic climate where a tertiary qualification is pretty much mandatory for any decent-paying career outside the trades, that situation makes me kind of stabby.

    Morningside • Since Nov 2006 • 533 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg,

    But I have met people like that and they annoy me. A lot.

    Oh for sure. I went to university with a mixed crowd and we certainly had our share of students with an exaggerated sense of entitlement. Annoying indeed.

    I just didn't see what these particular gits had said or done to be put into that category.

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 802 posts Report Reply

  • NBH,

    Well if anybody's interested in the actual data, here's an MoE analysis from 2007 of the transition to different forms of tertiary education:
    http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/tertiary_education/15997
    Discussion of ethnicity is on pp13-15 of the full report, and discussion of school decile is on pp18-20 (though note that this is all focused on transition directly from school).

    Wellington • Since Oct 2008 • 97 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Well if anybody's interested in the actual data, here's an MoE analysis from 2007 of the transition to different forms of tertiary education:

    Thanks! Interesting.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • NBH,

    No problem - the Ministry actually has a really good portal for data, information, and research on all aspects of the education sector called Education Counts: http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/

    Wellington • Since Oct 2008 • 97 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    Sorry for the diversion - it all reminds me of this (culled from an old paper hiding on my USB drive). Only slight relevance but a nice touch of grisliness...

    [Through the 13th century in Europe] such independence was reinforced by the immunity that many university students and masters had from both secular and religious authorities. The mobility of universities also allowed them to pressure local authorities through the tactic of cessatio or strikes; thousands of students and staff would simply cease teaching and move to another town.

    The University of Paris is perhaps the best example of this extraordinary power and the ways in which it could be brought to bear. University students at Paris were protected both from secular punishment by their clerical status and from local ecclesiastical punishment by a special order of the papacy. After students clashed with the Provost of Paris in 1229, the university declared a six-year ban on teaching and studies in the city, and several thousand students and masters left Paris. The cessatio was lifted two years later after the Pope interceded with the King of France on the university's behalf and the masters’ demands were met.

    On another occasion, the Provost hanged two students in 1304, only to be forced by a cessatio to take the decaying corpses down two months later, "kiss them fairly on the mouth, and bury them with his own hands in hallowed ground."

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    Nice Sam, expel them? hell no hang 'em.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Yes and just imagine the cries of agony if Otago's students and lecturers packed up and moved elsewhere ....

    Dunedin does well by it's University (and vice versa) - in many cases it's a matter of "you don't know how lucky you are mate ...."

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Petra,

    @andin

    tee hee

    Please tell me your name is Andrew and that you're an Acountant, drunk in parnership with Taylor McLachlan. :-D

    Rotorua • Since Mar 2007 • 317 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    Almost three-quarters of students who left decile 9 and 10 secondary schools in 2004 transitioned into tertiary education, compared with 52 percent of school leavers who left decile 1 and 2 secondary schools.

    Yup, still a strong socioeconomic effect.

    B'sides, isn't everyone who goes to Otago a JAFA? And isn't everyone who goes to Canterbury from the first four fleets?

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    which first four fleets?

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    which first four fleets?

    All Cantabrians bear the convict stain. It's knowledge, Bro.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

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