Hard News: The positive option of Red Peak
171 Responses
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And if all else fails, we get another typset, somewhat reminiscent of the Hillary 2016 set.
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sandra, in reply to
Just because Red Peak is better than the panel options doesn't make it a good or even a very well considered choice.
Quite agree. I think I'll start a social media campaign for the flag I like and get another one added to the referendum. I expect JK to be fairly relaxed about that.
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George Darroch, in reply to
Are you being facetious? A lot of people are.
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Gordon Campbell on the Greens bad deal over the flags.
In one fell swoop the Greens’ Gareth Hughes has (a) rescued Prime Minister John Key from his personal flag fiasco (b) got the government out of a tight corner of its own making (c) agreed to vote with National to block Labour’s attempt to get a yes/no question added to the November referendum and (d) handed the Key government a club with which to beat the only other party – Labour – with which the Greens can hope to form a government in 2017. Was Red Peak such a compelling cause that the Greens needed to expend so much political capital on it?
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simon g, in reply to
I think I’ll start a social media campaign for the flag I like and get another one added to the referendum.
That's been a recurring theme in online debates over the past few weeks. I've lost count of the number of people who have said "Anybody could get 50,000 signatures, it's easy to rig online petitions", etc.
But here's the thing - they didn't. And with respect Sandra, you haven't (and presumably won't). Nothing wrong with that - you probably have a life! Fair enough.
But still ... people got engaged in the debate. They acted. They moved from "coulda" to "will" to "did". It took a lot of effort and it got a result. That won't change the world, but it did achieve something concrete, and that's a good thing.
Anyone else who wants to do the same should be encouraged to do so. Unfortunately, very few people do, which is a shame.
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sandra, in reply to
Are you being facetious? A lot of people are.
It's hard not to be ... a well-paid flag panel talking to empty halls around the country (I would have gone to my local meeting ... if I'd known it was on! And I'm one of the well-informed.)
A longlist of oddly amateur designs mixed in with a few that stand out, much chattering, then a shortlist of two flags that are essentially the same, one that's slightly different and one that's well, odd (try and imagine it being carried into an Olympic stadium by our Val).
THEN much more chattering and we add another flag to the referendum, one that didn't make the panel's cut the first time. Hell, I might even try to have TWO more designs added to the referendum. I think our new flag needs some green in it ...
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sandra, in reply to
Yeah, nah, joking. I'm quite content with the flag we have, although see good points in some that haven't made the referendum. I particularly liked the 'Maori make-over' given to the Union Jack on one long-listed flag. Don't know how I'd feel if the project had had some input from, you know, proper designers and all.
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George Darroch, in reply to
handed the Key government a club with which to beat the only other party – Labour – with which the Greens can hope to form a government in 2017. Was Red Peak such a compelling cause that the Greens needed to expend so much political capital on it?
If Labour were intransigent in their opposition to a process that would allow people to vote on their preferred flag before choosing whether to change the flag, then they created the club themselves.
The Government could have run this better, from start to finish. And they've taken a fair bit of political flak for that. But that history could not be unwritten, and the last two weeks were about what could be created from what already exists, not some hypothetical more successful process. And what already exists is four chosen by a panel, and another chosen by a large number of vocal New Zealanders. Demanding a stitch up of the process in order to have that one included is the definition of bad faith, and doesn't deserve a reward.
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chris, in reply to
Thank you evangelical Green Party for calling theater; look over here at us, we have this other devine popular thing, that makes us look more grown up than the Labour Party :-(
The Greens were presented with the option of either showing solidarity with Labour’s hypothetical proposal which could have potentially saved millions of pages of paper, litres of ink and petrol and kilowatts of electricity or the chance to satisfy a tiny movement running a lucrative fundraising campaign whose petitioned numbers amounted to about 20% of the party’s popular vote.
While they have remained true to their colour in assuming this ideological transgression will not lose them lustre among their more environmentally minded supporters and although they’ve exhibited just how green Labour/National’s hogging of the limelight has made them feel, unsubstantiated reports hint that by the time the next election rolls around they will have finalised this rebranding exercise, standing as The Yellows.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
(Gordon Campbell asks:) Was Red Peak such a compelling cause that the Greens needed to expend so much political capital on it?
Well someone had to act like an adult here...
and it wasn't forthcoming from Labour or National -
George Darroch, in reply to
The Greens were presented with the option of either showing solidarity with Labour’s hypothetical proposal which could have potentially saved millions of pages of paper, litres of ink and petrol and kilowatts of electricity or the chance to satisfy a tiny movement running a lucrative fundraising campaign whose petitioned numbers amounted to about 20% of the party’s popular vote.
It is my firm understanding that the referendum would be held anyway, since it was already the subject of legislation. And on that basis, claims about cost and complication are highly disingenuous
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chris, in reply to
Let’s explain by way of example: I ask you if you want a new t-shirt you’ll wear everywhere. Your existing t-shirt is old but comfortable. You ask which one, and you’re told that you have to decide if you want it before you’ll be told. A non-preferential yes/no process is designed to produce a no, and Labour know this.
I ask you if you want a new t-shirt you’ll wear everywhere. Your existing t-shirt is old but comfortable. I show you the choices, you can then decide to keep your existing T-shirt as well as making a choice for an alternative. If you overwhelmingly don’t want to change I’ll quit it, if you quite like one of the alternatives you can trial it for a few months with the option to make your final decision in March. That’s what Labour proposed.
It is my firm understanding that the referendum would be held anyway, since it was already the subject of legislation. And on that basis, claims about cost and complication are highly disingenuous
Thanks George, I thought that there might be a way for our Government to change legislation in that kind of scenario.
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George Darroch, in reply to
I ask you if you want a new t-shirt you’ll wear everywhere. Your existing t-shirt is old but comfortable. I show you the choices, you can then decide to keep your existing T-shirt as well as choosing an alternative.
Emphasis added.
That satisfies you if you want the existing alternative. If you want a different alternative you are essentially voting 'yes' in blind faith that an alternative you consider desirable or acceptable may be chosen.
I suggest that a plurality or even a majority of those who want change would vote no in the face of that uncertainty. It's a very poor way of expressing preferences.
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I am lucky enough to have a flagpole on the property. When the weather is fine without a gale (not that often) I usually fly the Hundertwasser green koru which is my favourite. I have the United Tribes flag for Waitangi Day and the Australian Aboriginal Flag for Australia Day - and for other times when I feel like it. I don't have and would never fly the current NZ flag, nor a silver fern.
I have just got Red Peak which will be a great addition to the collection. So I am quite happy with a diversity of flags. Do we really need just one?
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chris, in reply to
That satisfies you if you want the existing alternative.
It satisfies me because I don’t like any of the alternatives presented and want the status quo. If on the other hand you want one of the alternatives then Labour’s proposal didn’t alter the outcome except that any change could be vetoed in the first referendum by a majority who have no confidence in the alternatives. Read the link; the second referendum remained the same.
Andrew Little said if the answer was no, then the money set aside for the 2nd referendum won’t be spent.
If it’s yes, then the winner of the five designs will go up against the current flag early next year.
The proposed 'yes' vote was not conclusive.
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George Darroch, in reply to
except that any change could be vetoed in the first referendum by a majority who have no confidence in the alternatives.
So why ask them twice, if the objective is not to give people two opportunities to say no, and only one to say yes?
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chris, in reply to
Andrew Little said if the answer was no, then the money set aside for the 2nd referendum won’t be spent.
This was part of Labour's proposed bill.
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I was talking to a mate about this the other day and he made the point that this issue is tailor-made for one Winston Peters.
He reckons that as the referendum(s) near, Peters will stir up the Grey Power sector of the electorate and really hype them up against it.
Also, he reckons that voter apathy will have an effect, because the only people will bother voting are a) the Grey Power sector, b) political geeks and c) people that want to have a free swipe at John Key. Collectively, this will result in them successfully voting for the status quo. -
Berinthia Binnie, in reply to
You are great Hilary!
Can I suggest getting ‘Laser Kiwi’ and the Black & White ‘Girl in Profile with Silver Fern Ponytail’. Just from the time capsule angle I think that would round out your collection nicely.
Yes, it’s a bit of an investment (two Red Peaks: one to stash, one to fly) but far more relevant as a bundle…..and I’m sorry you would need to add the current flag before sealing them in a milo tin and burying them in the garden…..can be bought from ‘Hello Banana!’ here in Nelson for about 10 bux. The other two, I fear, will be a custom print……
I’m already having flag appreciators remorse about Sheep with Hokey-Pokey Ice Cream not making it into the tin….
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Josie McNaught, in reply to
Spot on Gordon. Also I hate the artificiality of using this, rugby, cycle paths to try and engender some warm and runny feeling about the country and by default about Key's government (his so-called legacy) When this flag process was started by the late Lloyd Morrison in 2005/05? the country was in a very different place economically, but also socially and culturally. Remember when working in the arts equalled having a credible job that contributed something valuable to society? Now making money from property deals is top of the list. Meantimes some of the most vulnerable in society (special needs kids, 65+year old people living in 'social housing', beneficiaries, those who need legal representation but can't afford a lawyer etc) are really the legacy that Key will leave behind.
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I am late to the party.
Has anyone asked what they are going to do with the 1.7 million pieces of paper that have been printed for the referendum.
I understand that this cost (potentially in the area of $500k) may have been avoided if the PM didn't drag his toes last week?
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izogi, in reply to
They used my personal details to phone spam me trying to get money. And they would not easily take no for awnser.
I guess it's the professionalisation of this stuff. I had a Forest & Bird collector come to the door once. I stated outright that I wasn't going to sign up to anything he had with him, or give any money direct through him, and at best might choose to donate via other means in my own time. He still worked at me for a good 30 minutes of his time, maybe because I hadn't shut the door in his face, and during which we had some fascinating discussions about any number of things. After that he seemed fairly rattled that I wasn't offering any money. Hopefully he learned something, though.
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Can I suggest getting ‘Laser Kiwi’ and the Black & White ‘Girl in Profile with Silver Fern Ponytail’.
Thanks BerinthiaYes would consider those two but it is a matter of finding them made up into proper quality flags, which can also be quite expensive. Not sure whether they would look very good flying either.
Red Peak is now its own business.
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David Hood, in reply to
The Greens were presented with the option of either showing solidarity with Labour’s hypothetical proposal which could have potentially saved millions of pages of paper, litres of ink and petrol and kilowatts of electricity or the chance to satisfy a tiny movement running a lucrative fundraising campaign whose petitioned numbers amounted to about 20% of the party’s popular vote.
Well, it could also be framed as they presented with the option of 4 choices and no first round decider, or five choices and no first round decider. Because there were not the numbers for a first round decider, otherwise the process would not have been gridlocked.
You will notice John Key shifted ground on this as their is no agreements for all parties to endorse the process, which was an early demand. Strategically, Labour might have been better to opt for "of no red peak or red peak, we support red peak. We think the process is flawed and there should be a yes/no on the first, but since national has dropped it's weird demand that we could only get Red Peak on if we endorse their process, we are happy to support Red Peak without endorsing the process. We will fight on to try and get the voices of the majority of New Zealanders who do not want change heard and avoid a colossal waste of money in this vanity project"
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These are reasonable points David.
Personally, up until Russel Norman’s seppuku I was 100% likely to have given the Greens my party vote in 2017, I’m less than enamoured with what I’ve seen over the last two months, my position is better expressed in the Gordon Campbell article that Deborah linked to over the page:
It is not as though the Greens came up with a novel, deal-breaking position: instead, it has simply delivered the government the escape route that it wanted, on terms where it is agreeing to enable John Key to block Labour’s attempt to stop more money being wasted on a second referendum in March. Shaw has spent all year denying the allegations that he’s really a closet Nat in disguise. Yesterday’s effort won’t help on that score.
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