Envirologue: Too Big to Fail – Why National will Never Act on Climate Change
244 Responses
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John Farrell, in reply to
The marketing dept. of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.....
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
We could be trapped in a neoliberal local maximum
I don't think there is any evidence to suggest we are at any kind of optima.
While the analogy is interesting as a thought experiment I don't think it is particularly helpful in our local political environment.
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BenWilson, in reply to
I don’t think there is any evidence to suggest we are at any kind of optima.
The fact that our political economic system has been quite static for a long period now does kind of suggest it. From the point of view of getting political support, practically every direction is downhill for the left. Nearly every suggestion involving any level of real change leads to an immediate drop in the polls.
While the analogy is interesting as a thought experiment I don’t think it is particularly helpful in our local political environment.
I don't think having a faith based belief in incrementalism is that safe either. If we're thinking about possibilities, narrowing things down to the tiny range of the immediately possible could be a big part of our problem. We could look back at the years spent circling Neoliberal Hill to find the top, wondering why we didn't try something else, but for a lack of courage or vision.
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BenWilson, in reply to
these magical alternate energies don’t come from fresh air
Weelll….wind power is, actually, literally, fresh air. Solar power falls on us from the sky. Tidal power is ripping around us constantly. Hydro power is fresh water falling from the sky driven by solar energy hitting the oceans. These are but a few alternate sources. They’re not enough at the moment, but they could be extended a lot. NZ has done pretty well so far with hydro, it’s not the stuff of fantasy.
Nor is saving energy by using better technology. Electric vehicles aren’t fantasy any more either, they’re a growing commercial reality. Much better insulation and heating solutions go a long way to cutting power usage. More efficient multi-rider transport like buses and trains are way more efficient than single use. Denser urban living and telecommuting save even more on transport costs by eliminating them altogether. *
But our challenge, if we see these as solutions, is not to just take the savings and spend them on more fossil fuels to give ourselves higher growth.
*ETA I'm not even going into the endless energy efficiency improvements in industry. These hardly even need to mandated when they save huge amounts of money. The only problem is, when they save money, the company invests in MORE industry. Bigger plant, more widgets per hour, more fertilizer on the fields, more cows per hectare....that's where the conundrum goes beyond what is technically feasible into the world of how we are economically organized. Which is why I've got no problem with Dave focusing the spotlight on whole system under which we live.
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Stamper Stamp, in reply to
Hi Tom
I agree - those items you mention may well turn out to have an influence on why we have been "flat-lining" temperature wise for some 18 years. The problem with these investigations for the believers in Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming is two fold:
* this means "the science is settled" is not true
* and the corollary is that man-made CO2 is not the main/only driver of temperature change; which is not surprising given that CO2 has risen from roughly 350ppm to 400ppm during the 18 years of flat-lining. -
Marc C, in reply to
No I won't, there was NO "racist" intention and message, it was just an example of putting up with living situations more common in much of Asia. I am sick of PC nonsense. I speak freely and choose wisely. No regret on my part for what I wrote, thanks!
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Alfie, in reply to
* this means "the science is settled" is not true
There you go again stomper. When 99% of scientists accept that man-made global warming is a fact, you'd have to be cranio-rectally inverted to continue quoting misinformation from climate change deniers.
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Stamper Stamp, in reply to
Hi Alfie
Sorry to see you’re beginning to hyperventilate; stay charm. Re-read it again and you will find I am not quoting misinformation from climate change deniers, I am just pointing out that carrying out more investigation means the science is not settled. There there now, feeling better? -
Steve Rowe, in reply to
Weelll….wind power is, actually, literally, fresh air. Solar power falls on us from the sky. Tidal power is ripping around us constantly. Hydro power is fresh water falling from the sky driven by solar energy hitting the oceans. These are but a few alternate sources. They’re not enough at the moment, but they could be extended a lot. NZ has done pretty well so far with hydro, it’s not the stuff of fantasy.
My point is that the equipment needed to harness these "free" energy sources comes from a fossil fueled energy base and needs to be supported by a fossil fueled mining industry. We are not going to "technology" out of the problem. Is is fantasy.
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Alfie, in reply to
Sorry to see you’re beginning to hyperventilate...
When you're bereft of facts, attack the man. Classy!
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Steve Rowe, in reply to
But our challenge, if we see these as solutions, is not to just take the savings and spend them on more fossil fuels to give ourselves higher growth.
That is exactly what happens. Lower fuel costs equals more fuel usage. Growth is the problem and the solution is - no more growth. No one will vote for it but it will happen eventually just through resource depletion. Anyone thinking there will be a political or corporate solution is grabbing pie in the sky.
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Katharine Moody, in reply to
Which is why I ask: Is there a better hill nearby? Where? What does it look like?
Try Costa Rica;
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Hey Stampy here is a link to the fifth IPPC report on the scientific consensus on climate change.
http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/mindex.shtml
If you would like to review and critique the 2,500 scientists who worked on it, I would be interested in your analysis.
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screaming meme…
…this stamper stamp a.i. reminds me of the guy above, ‘Johnny-on-the-spot-with-all-the-facts-and-attitude’ – dark actors afield.
<after Turing things over> hmmm, a certain syntactical insouciance makes me think of earlier versions of the same algorithm/algaewrither program parsing this way before…
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
Hell, all over...**
an example of putting up with living situations more common in much of Asia.
and I'd hazard to guess in much of Africa and South America, hell, there are probably fetid favela not far from this fabulous resource: http://olliwaterfoodpeople.blogspot.co.nz/2010/07/guarani-aquifer-ground-water-in-south.html
<shanghaied to introduce random factor>
:- ) -
Rich Lock, in reply to
Solar power falls on us from the sky.
And the amount of land space we need to harness more than we'll ever need is insignificant.
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This week’s This American Life (episode 555) opens with the “backfire effect” … and some techniques used by door-to-door canvassers to get people to change their minds anyway. Transcript here.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
I am just pointing out that carrying out more investigation means the science is not settled.
Actually what you are doing - and not as subtly as you believe - is trying to deflect people from ACTING on established science by arguing that more research could be done.
It is a cheap fatuous delay tactic and worthy of our contempt.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
If you would like to review and critique the 2,500 scientists who worked on it, I would be interested in your analysis.
Please note: finding typos and trivial errors does not constitute a proper review
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John Farrell, in reply to
It's the same tactic used by creationists to argue about evolution.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Makes you wonder why it hasn't already been done. As with practically everything else, it comes down to economics. It's still cheaper to dig up coal.
"More than we'll ever need" might be overstating things a bit though. It isn't hard to find uses for power. A superabundance of cheap solar energy could make a whole lot of things viable that currently aren't. If power were, for instance, a thousand times more abundant (and proportionally cheaper), then every fresh water problem everywhere could be solved by desalination and pumping. Irrigating the entire planet would be possible. Growing food generally is mostly about converting energy into food. Energy into the plant life, energy to transport materials to the site, process it, etc. With apparently unlimited energy the human population potential for the planet could rise by orders of magnitude. Many other kinds of industry similarly have large energy costs, which, if removed, opens massive doors. Fossil fuel could be obsoleted if energy were cheap enough that biofuel was actually more convenient.
But is solar actually cheaper yet? It keeps getting closer, but then we keep getting better at finding and exploiting fossil fuels too.
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Stamper Stamp, in reply to
Hi William
Many people have done just that - Prof Judith Curry said:“Evidence reported by the IPCC AR5 weakens the case for anthropogenic factors dominating climate change in the 20th and early 21st centuries.”
Her analysis can be found here:
http://judithcurry.com/2014/01/06/ipcc-ar5-weakens-the-case-for-agw/A worthwhile read.
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Interesting......
https://www.skepticalscience.com/Judith_Curry_arg.htm -
Kumara Republic, in reply to
Interesting……
https://www.skepticalscience.com/Judith_Curry_arg.htmMore on Judith Curry at RationalWiki and SourceWatch. Both name-check organisations linked to the Koch Bros.
Stamper Stamp: if you don't mind being asked a personal question, what industry do you work in?
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Stamper Stamp, in reply to
Hi William
Many people have done just that - Prof Judith Curry said:“Evidence reported by the IPCC AR5 weakens the case for anthropogenic factors dominating climate change in the 20th and early 21st centuries.”
Her analysis can be found here:
http://judithcurry.com/2014/01/06/ipcc-ar5-weakens-the-case-for-agw/A worthwhile read.
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