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Speaker: Why churches should marry same-sex couples

21 Responses

  • Ben Ross,

    Meanwhile this: http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/family-first-fights-to-remain-tax-free-charity-2014120805
    Family First NZ says it's continuing to fight to remain a tax-free charity.

    The group was advised in 2013 the Charities Commission intended to deregister the charity, citing Family First's traditional view of marriage being one man and one woman as one of the reasons.

    Family First is appealing the decision and it will be heard in the High Court at Wellington early next year.

    The group had hoped the issue would be resolved after a Supreme Court ruling in favour of Greenpeace in August.

    The court ruled that Charities Act didn't limit advocacy from a charity unless it was no more than ancillary to its charitable purpose, and also found that a political purpose could also be a charitable one.

    The commission is arguing the issue is about public benefit, Bob McCoskrie, national director of Family First NZ, says.

    Will see how the Court rules next year

    Auckland • Since Jan 2014 • 32 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    The Presbyterian Church faces similar issues. Sadly those Churches (like St Andrews on the Terrace) who have long been members and advocates of the LGBT community are in the minority within the Presbyterian church at large.

    But in their case do they split from a national church or do they try to work to enact change from within.

    It's so very sad I feel quite lucky to have grown up in such an accepting church, and being surprised when i moved cities how different churches were very straight down the line. My favourite was when it was ok to be gay as long as you never did anything, hate the sin love the sinner sort of rubbish

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sue,

    My favourite was when it was ok to be gay as long as you never did anything, hate the sin love the sinner sort of rubbish

    A cruel idea framed as a kind one.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    A cruel idea framed as a kind one.

    It's also a horribly confused one, but I've kind of given up splattering my brains up against that particular brick wall.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Sue,

    My favourite was when it was ok to be gay as long as you never did anything, hate the sin love the sinner sort of rubbish

    What I find particularly adorable is the whole "equality of civil marriage, which we don't doctrinally recognize anyway, is a vicious attack on religious freedom" foofy-tosh. It's not only circle jerk non-reasoning, but it's an argument I doubt these folks would reciprocate if I decided to go full metal Wicker Man in the backyard and burn someone to death to appease the spirits and help the roses along...

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    As with your last post, I find it hard to say anything meaningful to add to your message, other than moral support. It seems like one of the most difficult paths, to attempt to change an organization from within. It is no wonder that people mostly prefer to abandon it. It takes a brave person to fight that kind of prejudice, to face the hostility of the remaining membership. I imagine that it's also a path plagued with doubt at all times, since the alternative path of breaking away so as not to have to deal with bigotry whenever one want to partake of spiritual feelings, is sitting right there, beckoning.

    It seems like a fight worth fighting, if you have the stomach for it, but it's against great odds. As an unbeliever, it's hard for me to feel that it's a battle that could ever be won, that a big part of the problem is the very way in which a church is structured, that its very design is to give away personal conscience in favor of guidance by authority. To even have one book that one is committed to considering the most authoritative source on the matters that it deals with is ceding authority right there. To even be seeking in an ancient text for solutions to modern problems. To choose one semi-historical figure for all guidance, especially one living in a society so different to most modern experiences.

    All of these seem like insurmountable obstacles to finding progressive solutions. It's like insisting on Aristotelian astronomy (which the Church, ironically, did). How can you progress in understanding of astronomy if the last word on it was written thousands of years ago? Similarly, for moral progress? At some point (well, actually, at countless points) one has to ask "maybe Christ was even wrong about this?", rather than "can we adapt what Christ said to be more right?"

    But that said, I understand that the framework I'm talking about here is essentially to not be a Christian at all (in many understandings of that). And in taking it one abandons the other people left behind. To that end, I can see merit in attempting to change from within, even if I find it very hard to believe it wouldn't be ultimately futile. Anything you can do to improve the lot of any gay people left in the faith is a good thing. Even if you don't manage to change the institution, you could be helping real people.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Jeremy Andrew,

    Yeah, just saw that....

    Jesus wept.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1346 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Curtis,

    Isnt the idea of a church wedding because we are confused about who is really deciding who can be married , or not.
    In the end for NZ its the State, but they license approved church officials to do it for them. of course you can get a ‘registry office marriage’ alone it you dont go for all that palava. or indeed a non denominational marriage celebrant.
    In some countries a marriage is not official until the state official has performed it, a church wedding is an additional ‘cultural occasion’ if you like that palava. Napoleon spread this custom throughout Europe.

    Perhaps its time we moved away from having religious officials approved for legal weddings.
    Its not only same sex couples, but churches can have various restrictions on who they marry, divorced people in the catholic church being an example.

    After all hardly anyone worries about their church approving their divorce, it's a problem for some, they just get a civil divorce and are done.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 314 posts Report Reply

  • GarethD,

    With regards point 1: Didn't Jesus heal the gay centurion's lover? Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10

    Auckland • Since Dec 2014 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Jeremy Andrew,

    OTT OT devotee...

    Wow, I'm gobsmacked!

    Pastor Logan Robertson is a Cyber Bully and possibly in contravention of the law regarding inciting to suicide and misuse of electronic media, not to mention his accusing the sender of child molestation -
    Robertson should change his name to 'Pastor his use by date' - what an ugly piece of work this so-called Christian is - an Old Testament follower, heck what about the Book of Enoch as well....
    - 'Do unto others before they do unto you' seems to be his worldview - how very very sad...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    re the Pastor praying for someone to commit suicide:

    I note that Stuff has a screen shot of the email which ends:
    ""I pray that you will commit suicide, you filthy child molesting fag."
    which is a bit different to their headline:
    "Pastor told gay Christian: Go kill yourself"

    Meanwhile The NZ Herald presents a quote - as if it were verbatim:
    "I pray that you will commit suicide, you filthy fag."
    yet they edited some of the egregious material out without indicating that they had.
    Were they trying to water it down or what?

    Not good journalistic practice or integrity on both papers part.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Kudos to TV1 for sending a gay reporter to interview the bigot ... and reporting exactly what he said

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    [Removed because on a second look Ian's read of the story is spot on. Mine not so much.]

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Meanwhile The NZ Herald presents a quote – as if it were verbatim:
    “I pray that you will commit suicide, you filthy fag.”
    yet they edited some of the egregious material out without indicating that they had.
    Were they trying to water it down or what?

    I suspect they were worried about defamation risk in re-publishing an allegation of child molestation. Not with any real grounds, of course, but that's my guess.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I suspect they were worried about defamation risk in re-publishing an allegation of child molestation. Not with any real grounds, of course, but that’s my guess.

    And honestly, I'd give The Herald the benefit of the doubt there though, of course, paraphrases should be clearly labelled as such. In the end, it clearly conveyed the tenor of that tosspot's vileness without going over the edge into stuff that could have been seriously triggering to any GLBT victim of abuse -- and anyone with even a micron of common decency.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    While I applaud the intention of this effort, nothing much is going to change until the homophobia underlying the doctrinal beliefs of this and other churches is addressed.

    Similar to how marriage laws didn't change until laws against homosexuality were repealed, and discrimination against homosexuals (and other sexualities) was outlawed... except for churches.

    Also, I strongly feel that churches should get out of the business of marriage altogether, in a legal sense.

    But thank you for making some effort towards getting a dialogue going.

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 701 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Jeremy Andrew,

    Wow, I'm gobsmacked!

    The goods news is that Facebook supports him. I reported his failbook page as hate speech and they've just got back to me to say that it's fine and what he says there is acceptable. I am tempted to make a fan page where I describe in gory detail the various things I think would be appropriate to happen to him. Based on Bible quotes, of course, since there are so many really nasty options. I'm sure Facebook would approve.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1233 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Jeremy Andrew,

    Wow, I'm gobsmacked! http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/63934551/Pastor-told-gay-Christian-Go-kill-yourself

    One would be forgiven for thinking the Westcity Baptists are a very twisted comedy troupe, just like the Westboro Baptists. Michael Moore certainly does.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5441 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason, in reply to GarethD,

    With regards point 1: Didn’t Jesus heal the gay centurion’s lover? Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10

    I just had a gink at these two.

    Servant is mentioned. For all my years I have never heard the word servant being used as a term for a gay person. Have I missed something?

    Always impressed what folk can manage to glean from the bible.

    This religious fanatic needs help.

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    Anything.

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

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