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Speaker: An Open Letter To David Cunliffe

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  • Deborah, in reply to mark taslov,

    You've misread what I wrote, Mark. It would be possible to put in some sort of exemption like that, but there are big technical difficulties with doing it. No such exemption is in the proposed CGT. Instead, there are exemptions for family homes, and long held small businesses (per my previous post) and and exemption for collectables.

    The exemption for collectables and the like takes out most of the low level capital gains, so you're left with the big ones which are intended to be the major focus of the tax, namely, real estate and shares. Typically, low income people do not hold second properties and do not hold shares. In the great majority of cases, the only people who will end up paying CGT are wealthy people ie. those wealthy enough to own more than one house.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1447 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    It would be possible to put in some sort of exemption like that, but there are big technical difficulties with doing it.

    So you mean Labour won't continue to explore this avenue?

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah, in reply to mark taslov,

    The Australian CGT was inflation indexed, but it proved to be absurdly complicated, so inflation indexing was abandoned, and instead, only half of any capital gain is subject to the CGT (NB: in Australia). Capital gains (in Australia) are taxed using ordinary old tax rates. This is one way of adjusting (in some fashion) for the effect of inflation ie. applying standard income tax rates, but taxing only half the gain.

    The proposed CGT here goes the other way. All the gain is taxable, but at a low rate. Bear in mind that the great majority of people who will end up paying the CGT are wealthy, so they will be on higher tax rates. So the 15% rate on CGT is a concessionary rate in comparison to standard income tax rates.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1447 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah, in reply to mark taslov,

    I am in no position to say what Labour will or won’t do with respect to the CGT. All I know is what is written in the policy, which is freely available on the Labour party website, and has been for months. I never said that Labour was exploring this position. All I said was that it was a possible option with respect to a CGT (any old CGT, anywhere in the world).

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1447 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Deborah,

    Thanks Deborah that’s good enough for me, more than enough to chew on for the next couple of years. Compared to some of the models, one advantage I hope could assist with regards to a more nuanced CGT localisation is New Zealand’s relatively low population.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    Craig could you please pull back from calling anyone who has a different perspective than yours on Cunliff's decisions "disingenuous" or "naive" it's mean.

    I don't know anyone who wanted Cunfliff to resign on the night, nor do i think there are many here who wanted it either. So not sure where you got that.

    I wanted the review to happen before any big decisions were made, I'm disappointed that can't happen and that Cunliff chose to force the issue making his needs more important than the future of the Labour Party.

    I do not think it is naivety to think a Potential Future PM can't take a step back and consider what is best for everyone as opposed to what is best for them and them alone. The review may come back saying nobody could have done more than Cunliff & he is the best leader going forward (i personally doubt it) but this rushed leadership election prevents party voters from making an informed choice.

    To think and hope these things does not make one guilty of Dirty Politics.
    Let's save that word for people who are really truly disgusting and have acted horribly with malicious and hurtful intent.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    And we’re really going to bring Dirty Politics into it? If you want to go there, Kyle, I’ll ask whether that label is better applied to people who only respect the rules when they find it politically convenient to do so.

    I'm not aware of anyone not following the Labour party rules.

    But I think everyone could do a lot better than look at the rulebook, and then be snide about fellow caucus members, which it seems is going on a lot. That's not going to inspire anyone.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Deborah,

    I quite like the sound of this:

    In January 2009, Germany introduced a very strict capital gains tax (called Abgeltungsteuer in German) for shares, funds, certificates, bank interest rates etc. Capital gains tax only applies to financial instruments (shares, bonds etc.) that have been bought after 31 December 2008. Instruments bought before this date are exempt from capital gains tax (assuming that they have been held for at least 12 months), even if they are sold in 2009 or later, barring a change of law. Certificates are treated specially, and only qualify for tax exemption if they have been bought before 15 March 2007.

    Real estate continues to be exempt from capital gains tax if it has been held for more than ten years. The German capital gains tax is 25% plus Solidaritätszuschlag (add-on tax initially introduced to finance the 5 eastern states of Germany – Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Thuringia and Brandenburg – and the cost of the reunification, but later kept in order to finance all kind of public funded projects in whole Germany), plus Kirchensteuer (church tax), resulting in an effective tax rate of about 28%. Deductions of expenses such as custodian fees, travel to annual shareholder meetings, legal and tax advice, interest paid on loans to buy shares, etc., are no longer permitted starting in 2009.

    There is an allowance (Freistellungsauftrag) on capital gains income in Germany of €801 per person per year of which you do not have to be taxed, if appropriate forms are completed.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • WH, in reply to mark taslov,

    Mark, you've posted more than two dozen marginally relevant or completely off topic comments. You've already been warned by the moderator. If you want people to think that you are deliberately derailing this thread, by all means carry on.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to WH,

    Responding to Deborah who had of her free will offered and taken the time to discuss Labour’s CGT I missed my edit window to include the link with ‘models’ in my final thanks, I considered giving it a miss, but I found that the German CGT’s €801 exemption was along the lines of the example I’d just given on the previous page when Deborah had responded:

    it could be possible to put in some some of low level exemption

    Thinking this and the church tax might be things that the Labour Party could consider, if they’re still open to that. I decided to paste it as it also addresses the problem of property speculation, which Sue had brought up last night, and seeing she was getting a hard time from Craig I thought it might be a different avenue if she wished for a change of pace.

    Russell asked me to stop talking about James lack of engagement on this thread and provided good reasons why James may not wish to show up here, I’ve not touched it since replying to Kyle ten hours ago.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to WH,

    But yeah, no worries, whatever you’re into. One of those two dozen posts was a response to your:

    This is an unfortunate diversion,

    With regards to me taking up Deborah’s offer to answer a question unsolicited.

    When I later recommended “The Grim Face of Power” to you and name checked Muldoon’s ‘Meet the People’ meetings your reply was:

    The left has its share of telegenic leaders. Kennedy is often said to have beaten Nixon on the back of a televised debate. Tony Blair and Bill Clinton were charismatic leaders, and Obama and Elizabeth Warren are too.

    To save you the trouble, I wasn’t referring to telegenic leaders or televised debates. With a hostile media, and party support this low, the course of action I was suggesting in the conclusion of my initial post here yesterday with:

    that long forgotten practice of engaging with the constituency. Get your feet back on the God damned tarmac,

    is that Labour’s pursue different avenues to side-step this media interference in a concerted effort to get back into power. I was compelled by Muldoon’s approach:

    "By early ‘74 with an election almost two years away, he was filling halls throughout the country.”

    “In November 1974 over a year before the expected election Muldoon began his ‘Meet The People’ campaign’"

    Sir Rob Muldoon:

    "So I kept on having these, very frequently, all over the country, in the various provincial areas, invariably full halls and people overflowing outside."

    Because I’m not that concerned with the intrigue as to who the next Labour leader will be, whoever it may be is of very little meaning if Labour lose the next election. And a 2017 loss doesn’t look unlikely at all. 2 months lost to a leadership battle is a heavy price to pay, and what I’ve seen of the current leadership candidates is that they are much of a muchness, two middle aged sandy haired well spoken, well educated white men. Heck I’ve lived in China long enough – and excuse my racism – that I can barely tell them apart. One wears glasses. That’s the derail, James’ letter is the derail. Labour’s fluffing about is the derail. The tracks lead straight ahead, it’s Government or bust.

    I don’t feel that any of the current frontrunners would be able to take down Key on charisma alone. If Labour are to win they will collectively need to campaign in a way that is truly special, fresh or at least different from what we’ve seen in the last six years. And so I put ‘Meet the People’ or something of that ilk on the table. In the hope of igniting conversation into a direction we could collectively influence and that might actually make the difference.

    In answer to your question Sacha over the page:

    To get less insular, how can Labour best improve the prospects of a broader left coalition?

    I also contend that this could ideally be done in conjunction with the Greens and other left leaning parties: really connecting with and listening to the rest of New Zealand - the same New Zealand Labour's policies only included as an afterthought in 2014 - in a similar vein to the way productions like ‘L&P Top Town’, or ‘It’s in the Bag’ united New Zealand in some strange intangible way. Because shark the numbers however you like, the provinces still carry 43% of the population. The maps tell the story. We are a long way from the time when Labour was as Big Norm liked to call it ‘the natural party of New Zealand’.

    The problem is that I’m too young to remember, I don’t know how ‘Meet the People’ really went down or worked logistically, so I hoped it would jog someone’s memory. We did see something roughly in this vein with Internet-Mana, but again it wasn’t really anything like this, and Internet-Mana’s campaign was hampered from the outset by their own impairments. I don’t know, perhaps it is a derail, perhaps I should have kicked off with this post. I’m tired of smelling Labour’s dirty laundry. and I’m looking forward WH.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • WH, in reply to mark taslov,

    I actually did see your suggestion that the Labour Party model itself on Robert Muldoon.

    I'm going to leave it there.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    As for the puppet master politics slur, this:

    But Cunliffe avoided answering, turning the topic instead to Labour’s broader tax plan. His advisers told media in the break that the tax would not apply to the family home oif it was in a trust.

    It’s time to road test this shit. If the policies take a bit of explaining then give yourselves a fighting chance to do just that.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to WH,

    I’m going to leave it there.

    I can appreciate that, The doco has it’s moments; Bob Jones recounts the story of a cocktail party at his place where PM Bob Muldoon happened to – for whatever reason – strip naked, chasing Bob Jones’ sister around the house, ending up with Jones’ sister sitting on Muldoon’s head almost drowning him in the pool. If only.

    Anyway try as I might I can find very little of substance on Kirk’s campaign other than small snippets like:

    Using the slogan ‘Make things happen’, he campaigned tirelessly for planned development which, with new financial incentives, he hoped would lead to faster economic growth.

    Perhaps the campaign styles weren’t so different. The majorities Kirk and Muldoon held when they took office were both in the 20s. But only some of the older community members would recall and be able to share. I do like to dream that there may be – after these years staring at screens – a renewed public enthusiasm for the live show. but yeah, make no mistake:

    Labour needs to build something, to have its members gather momentum from each others’ efforts. The regularity and tone of these leadership contests is not helping.

    I’m with you.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to WH,

    the Association of Free Associaters...

    ....you’ve posted more than two dozen marginally relevant or completely off topic comments

    Shucks, I do that all the time - I didna realise it was illegal - I always figure people are nimble of mind and wit...
    ...and ya have to say some of these threads end up in some very interesting places with equally fascinating side-trips...

    Homogeneity can be overrated!

    :- )

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    productions like ‘L&P Top Town’, or ‘It’s in the Bag’ united New Zealand in some strange intangible way.

    OOOOO.. a political television show that unites a country. Now that'll be a first!
    Hmm, I think my toenails need clipping, excuse me... wont be a mo'

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1890 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to andin,

    Oddly, almost the complete opposite Andin: The easily digestible abridged early morning cut:.

    "With a hostile media […] to side-step this media interference” […] ”filling halls throughout the country” […] ”provincial” […] “road test"

    Careful with them clippers.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • william blake,

    Since Mar 2010 • 380 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Sue,

    Craig could you please pull back from calling anyone who has a different perspective than yours on Cunliff’s decisions “disingenuous” or “naive” it’s mean.

    I'm genuinely sorry you think that Sue, because I don't think someone making a bad argument (IMHO & YMMV, of course) is ipso facto a terrible human being worthy of nowt but scorn and contempt.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to mark taslov,

    All the young Turks...

    The problem is that I’m too young to remember, I don’t know how ‘Meet the People’ really went down or worked logistically, so I hoped it would jog someone’s memory.

    I don't jog through there that often...
    but the '60s and '70s were a very different proposition from the ever unwrapping present, we embrace.
    Only a few major entertainment& information sources;
    Radio, Reading and Other People...

    Dance Halls, shows (including 'fillums'), meetings - all good options.
    Distracting attractions.
    Lotsa workers, everywhere, working, hard.
    Everyone pretty much knew their place...
    and didn't get around much.
    Simple times.

    things begin to change, faster...

    - Te Ara does a much better job than me
    Here's a 'show me the money' shot from Muldoon's 1975 well organised rabble rousing 'Rob's Mob' town hall tour.

    Here's another shot a popular entertainment of the times:
    Watching the money changes in the temple...

    from the Muldoon story

    National's own site has some history:

    National barnstorms the nation in 1975
    Kirk died in office and was replaced by Bill Rowling. Rowling lived in the shadow of Kirk. Muldoon barnstormed the country in 1975 his most famous meeting of that campaign was at the Wiri Woolstore where he spoke to a crowd of 6500. Muldoon, the master debater, was highly successful on television, which had come of age as a primary campaigning medium. A highly successful advertising campaign put National into power with a massive majority.

    Here is PDF of an a very interesting article by Barry Gustafson on Muldoon's biograhy, biography in general and public personas.

    Austin Mitchell's The Half Gallon Quarter Acre Pavlova Paradise might help throw some light on the times...

    enjoy, don't get lost back there
    in the time-stack...

    :- )

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to william blake,

    Cameron Conference Rap

    Ice flows, man!
    Brill!

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to ,

    And a split might also help with that wee problem about the conservative homophobic working class / liberal academic middle class not seeing eye to eye on all things party leadership.

    Yup, these two tiny groups need not be in the room together, sucking out all the oxygen with their squabbles.

    ETA: I'm pretty sure the whole idea is wishful thinking, though, because the old guard would not have the courage for it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    the ’60s and ’70s were a very different proposition from the ever unwrapping present, we embrace.
    Only a few major entertainment& information sources;

    Within five years of the first regular TV broadcasts in NZ Wellington was experiencing the phenomenon of a 'royal flush'. Viewers of the one and only channel strained the city's water resources as they hurried to perform their ablutions in the ad break following the evening news.

    But as they say, if you claim to remember this kind of inconsequential rubbish you probably weren't there.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to ,

    And a split might also help with that wee problem about the conservative homophobic working class / liberal academic middle class

    Is there a compelling reason to deal with imaginary problems?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Indeed. Given that the region people seem to think has the most conservative support for Labour, South Auckland, seems to have no trouble giving support to marriage equality and queer MPs, I can only surmise that this is a paternalistic narrative put forward by people who claim to really know the interests of Māori and Pasifica people.

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 441 posts Report Reply

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