Southerly by David Haywood

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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand Alington—and why did he give away his “Girl child 23 months old”?

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  • ChrisW, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    I just realised that Bill Alington who Nicky McCreanor mentioned above (hello Nicky), and I know of as a significant modernist architect in Wellington, and as the husband of the late Margaret Alington historian, is actually William Hildebrand Alington b 1929 in the Turnbull records.

    Where (with the aid of your Wikipedia reference) I see that Margaret Alington is Margaret Hilda Alington nee Broadhead. And because I really do like old cemeteries, I’ve known her as Margaret H. Alington, author of an excellent 1978 book on my shelves – "Unquiet Earth", a thorough if not definitive history of the Bolton Street Cemetery of which a large chunk was destroyed for the Wellington motorway in the 1960s.

    Gisborne • Since Apr 2009 • 851 posts Report Reply

  • ChrisW, in reply to David Haywood,

    The inscription seems a bit pointed.

    David - splendid photo and story with it. I’ve followed this thread with interest though without fully engaging with all the detail as it’s unfolded, but still I appreciate the power of your experience in excavating through the lichens and metaphors covering this fallen headstone.
    The verse is from what appears to have been or be a popular ?Non-Conformist hymn, and I think you’re fully justified in reading meaningful nuances in the headstone as a whole – that’s what they were/are for, as a means of communicating with the future.

    Gisborne • Since Apr 2009 • 851 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to David Haywood,

    …down the Time Team Tunnel

    The red circle outlines George Hildegard Alington’s grave….

    …there was a gender reassignment as well!?
    I didn’t see that coming!

    Just how would the ‘elevator pitch’ for the movie go?

    [EDIT: DH – thanks Ian, now fixed!]

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH, in reply to David Haywood,

    "August 31 [1887], Mary Ann, relict of the late Thomas Webb, and mother of Mr Thomas F, Webb, Caledonian read, St Albans, aged 67 years. Deeply regretted."

    She’s the 67-year-old offspring of the late Thomas Webb and the mother of Mr Thomas F. Webb. I’m still thinking about that.

    I think "relict" probably means she was the wife of the late Thomas Webb.

    From the BDM indexes Thomas Frederick Webb had these children (with Mary Ann):
    1875 Mary Ann Webb
    1877 Thomas Frederick Webb
    1881 John William Webb
    1887 Leonard Arthur Webb

    Thomas Frederick Webb the younger died in 1945 age 68
    Thomas Frederick Webb the elder died in 1935 age 81

    So Thomas Frederick Webb born about 1854, died 1935. Mother was Mary Ann (born about 1820, died 1887), father was Thomas Webb. I'm not sure how Thomas Frederick could be related to Eliza. They're not siblings and both of their father's names are Thomas so they are very unlikely to be first cousins.

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to SteveH,

    Vestigial vassal?

    “relict” probably means she was the wife of the late Thomas Webb

    Archaic; a widow, from the Old French ‘relicte’ (woman) left behind…
    (also a vestigial biological remnant or refugee).

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to SteveH,

    So Thomas Frederick Webb born about 1854, died 1935. Mother was Mary Ann (born about 1820, died 1887), father was Thomas Webb. I’m not sure how Thomas Frederick could be related to Eliza. They’re not siblings and both of their father’s names are Thomas so they are very unlikely to be first cousins.

    Thanks for that, SteveH! Very enlightening, and still the mystery thickens...

    There is a Mary Ann Webb listed for Caledonian Road in the 1896 electoral roll. So that would fit it with your BDM research (unless Mary Ann the elder got better after her death notice in 1887).

    Perhaps we have two unrelated (or tenuously related) Webb families living in Caledonian Road?

    Incidentally in the 1896 electoral roll there is both an Eliza Ann Winter listed for Caledonian Road, and an Eliza Ann Webb listed as 19 Montreal Street, storekeeper, residential.

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Archaic; a widow, from the Old French ‘relicte’ (woman) left behind…
    (also a vestigial biological remnant or refugee).

    I knew the biological meaning and thought it just meant offspring. Duh. Why didn't I look it up?

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to ChrisW,

    The verse is from what appears to have been or be a popular ?Non-Conformist hymn, and I think you’re fully justified in reading meaningful nuances in the headstone as a whole

    Heck -- what a gloomy hymn! Mind you, some of the other verses could have made for an even more pointed headstone.

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    I have found the shipping records for Eliza's family on familysearch.org. Her older sisters arrived first, followed by Susan with the other children. The father, Thomas, was not with them:

    The "Waipa", arrived Lyttleton 24 Jan 1877:
    Malvina Webb of Cornwall, 21, single, housemaid
    Mary E Webb of Cornwall, 15, single, nursemaid

    The "Waitangi", arrived Lyttleton 13 Oct 1878:
    Susan Webb of Cornwall, 44, tailoress
    John Webb of Cornwall, 17, cooper
    Annie Webb of Cornwall, 15, nursemaid
    Minnie Webb of Cornwall, 13

    The family appears in the 1871 Census of England, in St Austell, Cornwall:

    Susan Webb, head, 30, dressmaker, born St Austell
    Malvina Webb, daughter, 15, housekeeper, born St Austell
    John Henry Webb, son, 11, scholar, born St Austell
    Mary Eleen, daughter, 8, scholar, born St Austell
    Eliza Ann, daughter, 6, scholar, born St Austell
    Melinda, daughter, 4, scholar, born St Austell
    Angelina Martin, neice, 23, servant, born St Austell

    Thomas is again missing, however the 1861 shows him as a sailor which may be the reason for his later absence.

    I also found shipping records for Thomas Frederick Webb:

    The "Duke of Edinburgh", arrived Lyttleton 17 Jul 1874:
    Thomas F Webb of Middlesex, 21, painter
    Mary A Webb of Middlesex, 22

    I think this almost certainly rules out any close connection between Eliza and Thomas Frederick.

    I have images for all the above records. Shall I post them here or upload them somewhere else?

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Re the Karori Alington connection, I am puzzled about the naming of Alington Road which starts by Karori West school and goes up the hill. The road to Makara goes off it. This area was developed from the 1930s. My parents bought a 1930s house in Hathaway Avenue, off Alington Road, in 1940. So there might have been an Alington family landholding connection there earlier in the century. There is a good recent history of Karori which might have some information (but I don't have a copy). I know it mentions the first Wellington asylum, on the site of Karori Normal school, which I mention in my Access post.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Fooman,

    **Tu,t tut, tut....*

    ...poor Mr Buttle…

    one of my all time favourite movies!

    and still a movie for our times...


    ps: there's a great Carl Barks' Donald Duck story with the same premise, involving a fly and demolishing the wrong house.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    I am puzzled about the naming of Alington Road which starts by Karori West school

    Wellington Library resources reveal:

    'Allington Road' keeps alive the memory of the first Karori schoolmaster in the sixties.

    not sure if that is 1960s or 1860s
    there is a whole Chinatown to be got out of the development of the Kelburne, & Karori Tramway Co

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to SteveH,

    I have found the shipping records for Eliza’s family on familysearch.org.

    Genius! Though the ages are a bit confusing in places -- Susan was 30 in 1871 and 44 six years later in 1877.

    Do you take it that Eliza Ann was 'Annie' and Melinda was 'Minnie'? That would make sense (as these were names that both gave to their daughters) but the ages don't appear to match.

    I have images for all the above records. Shall I post them here or upload them somewhere else?

    Just post them here please, Steve. Thank you!

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to SteveH,

    I think this almost certainly rules out any close connection between Eliza and Thomas Frederick.

    The 1887-88 Wises’ Directory shows a William Winter, labourer, just across Caledonian Road from Thomas Frederick Webb – possibly this William Winter being the unpleasant husband of Eliza?

    The 1894-95 Wises’ Directory still shows William Winter at that same address – so possibly the father of that same William Winter? Or possibly Eliza Ann Winter is using her former husband’s name (as she appeared to keep doing up until her death) in the directory.

    The 1893 electoral roll has Eliza Ann Winter in Caledonian Road (while Susan Webb, nurse is in Methven – as is Eliza’s presumed sister Mary Ellen).

    The 1896 electoral roll has Eliza Ann Winter in Caledonian Road as well as Susan Webb, nurse.

    The 1903 Wises’ Directory lists Susan Webb (Eliza’s mother?) at 1 Dean Street, which intersects with Caledonian Road at that same spot.

    This is all rather confusing – but I think it does connect Susan, Eliza, and Mary Ellen. And therefore that same Eliza to Methven (where, according to her divorce papers, she was based in the early 1890s), i.e. even if Thomas Frederick Webb of Caledonian Road is no relation at all.

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH, in reply to David Haywood,

    Attachment

    Do you take it that Eliza Ann was ‘Annie’ and Melinda was ‘Minnie’? That would make sense (as these were names that both gave to their daughters) but the ages don’t appear to match.

    Yes, that's how I interpreted the names. Lynley mentioned that Eliza used Ann or Anne on official documents.

    The ages are slightly out but that's not uncommon. For Susan I believe the 1871 census age is incorrect (probably 36 was incorrectly transcribed as 30); the 1861 census has her age as 26 and her death record has it as 87 in 1921 so those two both match the shipping record pretty well. John's age matches, Susan's occupation matches, and the missing father matches. The other missing daughters are explained perfectly by the other shipping record. Also the ages for both Annie and Minnie are out be the same two year margin. Overall I'm pretty convinced it's the right family.

    Here's the 1871 census record. The head of each household filled in a census schedule that was then transcribed into an enumeration book by a census official. This in an image from the enumeration book.

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    Attachment

    The 1861 census record. Transcription:

    Thomas Webb, head, 25, Sailor, born Gorran, Cornwall
    Susan Webb, wife, 26, born St Austle, Cornwall
    Malvina Webb, daughter, 5, born St Austle, Cornwall
    John Henry Hosking Webb, son, 1, born St Austle, Cornwall

    Also I noticed that next door there is another Thomas Webb from Gorran, aged 58. Looking at earlier census data doesn't reveal a connection between these two but it's seem likely that there is one.

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    Attachment

    Assisted emigration record for Malvina and Mary E Webb.
    ("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12063-102711-46?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1877 > Waipa > image 21 of 54; citing National Archives, Wellington)

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • Lynley Chapman, in reply to SteveH,

    Other more learned and experienced genealogists have told me that Census records are rarely accurate - transcription errors, enumerators having difficult with accents/dialects, literacy issues amongst the population, people not having calendars to mark birthdays and the passing years, informants making errors, family members using names for people in the household that differ from officially registered names.....just to keep us all with plenty to think about in our research:-)

    As you say Steve it is so often joining matches up from a wide range of sources.

    Your work here looks convincing that we have Eliza Ann/e's birth family.

    Porirua • Since Aug 2011 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    Attachment

    Assisted emigration record for Susan Webb and family.
    ("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11774-137517-25?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1878 > Waitangi > image 58 of 64; citing National Archives, Wellington.)

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    Attachment

    Assisted emigration record for Thomas F Webb and wife Mary Ann.
    ("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11000-41209-96?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1874 > Duke of Edinburgh > image 42 of 71; citing National Archives, Wellington.)

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to SteveH,

    The ages are slightly out but that’s not uncommon. For Susan I believe the 1871 census age is incorrect (probably 36 was incorrectly transcribed as 30); the 1861 census has her age as 26 and her death record has it as 87 in 1921 so those two both match the shipping record pretty well. John’s age matches, Susan’s occupation matches, and the missing father matches. The other missing daughters are explained perfectly by the other shipping record. Also the ages for both Annie and Minnie are out be the same two year margin. Overall I’m pretty convinced it’s the right family.

    Spectacular, SteveH! And I certainly agree with your logic. I think we now have a complete paper trail linking Susan Webb with daughters Mary Ellen and Eliza Ann, and thus to Methven and Caledonian Road.

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to Lynley Chapman,

    The 1893 Electoral Roll for Women(such a useful resource!!) finds:

    Eliza Ann WINTER, Domestic duties, Caledonian Rd, St Albans

    Amelia COLEMAN, Domestic duties, Webb St, St Albans

    Winifred B ALINGTON, Dom duties, Methven.

    I don’t know ChCh – would Eliza have been a neighbour to the Colemans?

    Hi Lynley, the link to Amelia Coleman, Webb Street, in 1893 is the one bit of the puzzle that I haven't been able to double-check.

    Amelia doesn't seem to appear on the Christchurch electoral roll 1893 that I've been checking -- although there may be some reason for that (a late enrolment, etc.). She does appear at that address in 1896.

    Do you think you could post a screenshot (or just a screen photo) showing Amelia at that address 1893? Then we'd have all the bits of the paper-trail in one place.

    My apologies for being a details-obsessed engineer/scientist type...

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH, in reply to Lynley Chapman,

    Your work here looks convincing that we have Eliza Ann/e’s birth family.

    I think it's always good to highlight the inconsistencies and present the evidence for and against a conclusion. When I'm dealing with people many generations back I'm always very aware that if there is just one incorrect link between generations it can mean dozens or hundreds of incorrect people in a family tree.

    I forgot to mention one of the more compelling factors: "Malvina". Searching for "Mary Webb" in the 1861 census returns 2198 records. "Eliza Webb" gives 612. But there is only one "Malvina Webb" (though there are other potential matches such as "M Webb"). Genealogists love obscure names!

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to SteveH,

    I forgot to mention one of the more compelling factors: “Malvina”. Searching for “Mary Webb” in the 1861 census returns 2198 records. “Eliza Webb” gives 612. But there is only one “Malvina Webb” (though there are other potential matches such as “M Webb”). Genealogists love obscure names!

    Cracking!

    Though in an odd co-incidence there was a Malvinia (note extra 'i') Webb in Christchurch, living on Webb street very near to the Colemans (she appears to have been no relation to Malvina Webb). Malvinia Webb married Robert Ewing McDougall of the CHCH Art Gallery fame.

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH, in reply to David Haywood,

    Though in an odd co-incidence there was a Malvinia (note extra ‘i’) Webb in Christchurch, living on Webb street very near to the Colemans (she appears to have been no relation to Malvina Webb). Malvinia Webb married Robert Ewing McDougall of the CHCH Art Gallery fame.

    I noticed her when I was searching the BDM indexes. Our Malvina married George Farr in 1877, though his name is incorrectly recorded as Tarr in the index. They had twins in 1879, Alice Louise and Bernard George. Sadly neither survived their first year. In 1881 another Alice Louise was born, followed by Lillian Maud in 1882. George Farr died on 3 Feb 1888 in Auckland, and Malvina followed only a few months later on 16 Mar 1888. Pretty tragic history for that branch of the family too apparently.

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

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