Southerly by David Haywood

Read Post

Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand Alington—and why did he give away his “Girl child 23 months old”?

272 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 7 8 9 10 11 Newer→ Last

  • David Hood,

    Suddenly, Public Address gets swamped by people clicking the refresh button on this thread while awaiting developments :)

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood,

    Attachment

    Marriage certificate Eliza Ann Webb, 1882

    1. The marriage date is the same as that on the divorce papers.
    2. The witnesses match the names on the census and arrival records that SteveH cleverly unearthed – this confirms our assumption that Susan Webb was Eliza’s mother and Minnie her sister.
    3. The birth date range (implied by the age on the marriage certificate) between 5 May 1864 to 4 May 1865 matches that of the burial records that we had supposed for "Eliza Ann Kennard commonly known as Eliza Ann Winter".

    CONCLUSION: our assumptions about all these documents were correct.

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood,

    Attachment

    Marriage certificate Eliza Ann Winter, 1898.

    1. The age on this certificate implies a birthdate between 29 November 1864 and 28 November 1865, which doesn’t quite fit with the burial details (age at death implied birth between 15 October 1863 to 14 October 1864).
    2. But the place of birth ‘Cornwall’ does match with the census and arrival documentation.
    3. Interestingly, Eliza is described as “Supposed widow”, but I can’t read the rest of sentence. Can Ian Dalziel’s scanning electron eyes make any sense of it, I wonder?
    4. Also interesting is that none of Eliza’s family were witnesses.

    CONCLUSION: This is almost certainly the same Eliza Ann Winter.

    EDIT: Could it be: “Supposed widow states that she has not seen her husband for 7 years”?

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood,

    Birth certificates of Eliza's supposed illigitimate children:

    Horace Clement Wilfred Webb
    Hilda Annie Webb
    Berty Alfred Forster

    SUMMARY OF RELEVANT DATA:

    1. Horace Clement Wilfred Webb
    Birth location: Frederick Street, Dunedin
    Mother's name: Eliza Ann Webb
    Mother's place of birth: Ramsgate, Kent, England
    Mother's age: 32

    COMMENTS: the baby's place of birth is unlikely, the mother's place of birth doesn't match (our Eliza was born in Cornwall), and the mother's age also doesn't match (our Eliza would be around 26 years old).
    CONCLUSION: This is NOT our Eliza's baby!

    2. Hilda Annie Webb
    Birth location: Crescent Road, Saint Albans, [Christchurch]
    Mother's name: Eliza Anne Webb
    Mother's place of birth: Cornwall, England
    Mother's age: 27

    COMMENTS: All the data matches (including the address as per that supplied to Eliza's childrens' school in 1892).
    CONCLUSION: This is definitely the baby that became Eileen Winter Coleman.

    3. Berty Alfred Forster
    Birth location: Napier
    Mother's name: Eliza Webb
    Mother's place of birth: Ashford Kent, England
    Mother's age: 44

    COMMENTS: the baby's place of birth is highly unlikely, the mother's place of birth doesn't match (our Eliza was born in Cornwall), and the mother's age also doesn't match (our Eliza would be around 30 years old).
    CONCLUSION: This is NOT our Eliza's baby!

    UBER-CONCLUSION: Eliza had considerably fewer relationships than some of her relatives have supposed...

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to David Haywood,

    electron eyes...

    ....concurs with your edit.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • Lynley Chapman, in reply to David Haywood,

    Was the divorce Eliza sought through the courts ever granted David?

    The certificates have proved to be very useful in this instance. Sometimes you have to pay out the money to get answers.

    Porirua • Since Aug 2011 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to Lynley Chapman,

    Was the divorce Eliza sought through the courts ever granted David?

    I had assumed it was -- since it was all in the official archives and there was oodles of paperwork. But now that you mention it, I wonder why they didn't put "divorcée" on the certificate for her second marriage?

    Do any experts in this subject have enlightenment to bestow?

    It would, of course, be excellent to add bigamy to the growing list of weirdness for this story...

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Lynley Chapman, in reply to David Haywood,

    I'm no expert but an abandoned 3x gt grandmother of mine was allowed to remarry on the basis that a judge agreed that her husband had not been seen for many years.

    Divorces back in the olden days were expensive. Tough times for women left with a brood of children to feed and care for.

    Porirua • Since Aug 2011 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to David Haywood,

    4. Also interesting is that none of Eliza’s family were witnesses.

    I wonder if the 'John Martin Busch(sp?)' might be her elder brother John
    - after a name change to keep the Maiden/family name of Martin or is it Martini?
    (as on the wedding certificate maiden name field)

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    I wonder if the ‘John Martin Busch(sp?)’ might be her elder brother John
    - after a name change to keep the Maiden/family name of Martin

    Interesting idea...

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Lynley Chapman, in reply to David Haywood,

    I think the name is John Martin BUNT and here is a possible interesting link with photo:
    http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc03Cycl-t1-body1-d3-d29-d3.html

    Mr. John Martin Bunt, Secretary of the Canterbury Grocers' Assistants' Industrial Union of Workers, was elected to that position in May, 1901, and re-elected in September of the same year. Mr. Bunt has been a member of the Union since its inception, and a great deal of its success is due to his untiring energy and able management. He has been chosen to represent the Union in cases in dispute and also at various conferences. Mr. Bunt was born in Christchurch, in 1880, educated at the Normal School, and at the age of fourteen entered the Workingmen's Co-operative stores as office boy in the grocery department. By hard work and perseverance he gradually gained promotion, and now (1902) he occupies the post of first counter hand in the same department. Mr. Bunt is at present secretary of the Primitive Methodist Literary and Debating Society; he is a member of the Christchurch Prohibition League, and was for eighteen months a private in the Christchurch City Rifles. He is also one of the representatives of his Union on the Canterbury Trades and Labour Council.
    Standish and Preece, photo.Mr. J. M. Bunt.

    Porirua • Since Aug 2011 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH, in reply to David Haywood,

    Birth certificates of Eliza’s supposed illigitimate children:

    Horace Clement Wilfred Webb
    Hilda Annie Webb
    Berty Alfred Forster

    All three transcribed by DIA. I wonder what is in the original register entries that we are not allowed to see!

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Lynley Chapman,

    Well done that woman!
    I see the Bunt, clearly, now!
    ...so that's Grocery Salesman,
    after his name on the wedding register
    aaaahah...

    ...born in Christchurch, in 1880

    Didn't come out from Cornwall then...
    oh well.

    I'm liking the sound of that Primitive Methodist Literary and Debating Society, though being linked with the Christchurch Prohibition League would make for a 'dry' diversion.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • Lynley Chapman, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Thanks Ian. Eliza had some very interesting people in her life.

    I've contacted a fellow researcher who descends from BUNT to see if this chap belongs in her line....

    Porirua • Since Aug 2011 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • Charles Home,

    Dear all
    This has been a most fascinating read. Should have gone to bed ages ago, but had to read it (mostly) through. I'm thrilled to have stumbled onto it.
    George Hildebrand Alington was my great great uncle, being the brother (actually one of eight brothers) of my great grandmother Mary Dorothea Alington.
    I have the Alington tree going back to at least the 12th century, if anyone is interested.

    Bath, England • Since Jun 2014 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Lynley Chapman, in reply to Charles Home,

    Hello Charles. I am sorely tempted to write blog posts on the brickwalls and adoptions in my family history on the off chance that someone like you pops up with a long record to refer to and to share new findings with.

    I have no connection to this fascinating story at all but it has occupied my mind since David wrote it.

    Porirua • Since Aug 2011 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood, in reply to Charles Home,

    Hi Charles,

    Great to hear from you! Apologies for the late reply, I have been up the other end of the country at my grandfather's book launch.

    You certainly have some very interesting relatives in the Alingtons. I particularly like the sound of Rev John Alington and his sermons in praise of free love. Clearly a man before his time.

    If it would be useful for your genealogical research to have high-resolution scans of any of the documents that have been uncovered, then just contact me here.

    Thanks so much for contributing to this thread -- it's quite wonderful to hear from an actual Alington relative!

    Kind regards,
    David Haywood

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Charles Home, in reply to Lynley Chapman,

    Dear Lynley
    By coincidence, I have Chapmans back to the 1700s as my mother was a Chapman! You might be familiar with another ancestor Henry Samuel CHAPMAN, of Dunedin, who had the most desperately sad events in his life. The tragedy of the SS London in 1866. Perhaps he is an ancestor of yours too.

    Yes it has been a terrific detective story unfolding with each post. I'm immensely impressed by the obvious talents that have been contributing to the 'case'.
    I too have been hooked by the endless social adventure that is genealogy for a few decades.

    David - I would love to have some scans and I will contact you.

    Bath, England • Since Jun 2014 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Lynley Chapman, in reply to Charles Home,

    Hello again Charles. My husband's surname Chapman emerges from an illegitimate baby boy being born in Dunedin in 1877 and apparently "adopted" by the mother's married sister and husband Henry Chapman.

    I need to check my files but I don't think your Henry Samuel is connected. I will certainly be in touch if we have hit a second jackpot thanks to David!

    Porirua • Since Aug 2011 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • Charles Home,

    Hello Lynley
    I would love to know more about your Chapman.
    This HS Chapman was a Judge, first in Australia then in New Zealand. He lost his wife and three children in the London disaster. In 1868 he married his second wife, Selina Frances Carr from Ireland. He died in Dunedin in December 1881. One surviving son, Frederick Revans Chapman was also a Judge. He, in turn, lost both his sons. One at Ypres in 1915 and the other committed suicide on the sea journey to England in 1916.
    It makes you want to weep.

    Sorry all, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. Please get back on the case....

    Bath, England • Since Jun 2014 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe, in reply to Charles Home,

    Yours is no hijack: people around New Zealand were waiting for another story to unfold. Shall we call the Chapmans "Series Two"?

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2899 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace, in reply to Hebe,

    Is that the Chapman who founded the Chapman Trip law firm?

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Lynley Chapman, in reply to Charles Home,

    I will email you what I have on the Chapman line Charles but at first glance back at my files there is no relation to your Henry Samuel Chapman.

    Porirua • Since Aug 2011 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Hebe,

    Homer and Away?

    Shall we call the Chapmans “Series Two”?

    or On Second Looking into Chapmans, with Homer Work
    - now the bull on a grand has become artistic shorthand for epiphany!
    and the corgis are back in place, too...
    </Christchurch joke>

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe,

    Another circularity: a Chapman family has been established for many years near Methven at Inverary Station.

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2899 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 7 8 9 10 11 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.