Public Address | Cafe | Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand Alington—and why did he give away his “Girl child 23 months old”?

Kath Woodley

Fri, 21 Oct 2022 12:15:43 +1300

Fascinating to find all this information. i am volunteer at Methven museum and we have lots of information about George Hildebrand Alington and a street in the town is named after him. If you need a final repository for this letter David we would be pleased to receive it
Kath…

nzlemming

Fri, 26 Dec 2014 12:44:02 +1300

Seasons Greetings David. Is there any chance of an end of year wrap on this saga please? It is a fascinating piece of genealogy.

Ditto. I have just read it through with great pleasure (I was busy when it first posted and missed it, not that I had anything to…

Lynley Chapman

Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:46:48 +1300

Seasons Greetings David. Is there any chance of an end of year wrap on this saga please? It is a fascinating piece of genealogy.

Kind regards
Lynley Chapman

Greg McCreanor

Mon, 07 Jul 2014 00:45:36 +1200

A busy week and now back into it.....
Aug.27th 1887: William and Eliza's daughter Edith dies at Akaroa after ' 2 years Marasmus Asthenia '.
Sept.1887: William Winter deserts the family from Akaroa.
Oct.4th 1887: William sentenced to 7 days labour at Addington jail for ' failing to support his…

Brent Jackson

Mon, 30 Jun 2014 15:21:59 +1200

Apparently not

Greg McCreanor

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 23:40:49 +1200

An email from Rachel Vavasour at Rangi Ruru ( Vavasour is a name that crops up in the Alington tree a couple of hundred years ago ). Rachel confirmed that Eileen started at Rangi in 1905 and is getting the Honarary Curator to dig up more details if available. I…

Greg McCreanor

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 23:28:34 +1200

Slight correction to the last post. 74 Bristol Street or Crosby House: Aged Care Centre is on the right side of the old house and no.84 is the back section on the left side. So no.78 must be the old house ( fingers crossed that the postal numbers haven't been…

Greg McCreanor

Tue, 24 Jun 2014 07:44:38 +1200

Got called in to work overnight which ruined my chance to photograph the Bristol Street houses, however, managed to stop off at 5 a.m.and check the letterboxes. 74 Bristol is the two storey white wooden place with the sign, then the derelict and obviously abandoned house which is easily 100-plus…

Greg McCreanor

Mon, 23 Jun 2014 14:51:58 +1200

Hi Charles, Yes I remember the Argentyns and Cheekes from the masses of research that Lyn and David Hall gave me.He photocopied hundreds of pages when at the Society of Genealogists in London. Complete books in some cases. I'm in the garage today trying to find which boxes it's all…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 23 Jun 2014 07:54:56 +1200

The cake is supposed to be a pirate ship sailing through a tempest-tossed ocean, with cannons and a plank at the stern to allow victims to be conveniently flung off.
Phew, I can see that! At first I
thought Bob was turning 33 and
I may have nodded off for…

Charles Home

Mon, 23 Jun 2014 00:02:08 +1200

Greg, that was great to read. Thank you.
George Alington (born about 1500) had 3 brothers and was the son of Giles Alington (c1483 – 1522) of Horseheath. George married Anne Cheeke and had a son Henry (d1601).
George was my 10x Great Grandfather. So we must be related!

This…

David Haywood

Sun, 22 Jun 2014 20:22:33 +1200

I tend to think that the relationship between Alington and Eliza began when he was at the Mount Hutt Roads Board in Methven and she was living with family there having been deserted and awaiting divorce. Alington was in the Hunt Club with Coleman I seem to recall…the Colemans were…

Greg McCreanor

Sun, 22 Jun 2014 18:57:53 +1200

I don't know exactly what Eileen inherited from the Colemans but when she died in 1963 she had already turned over to my father the house and one acre at 117 Memorial Ave. plus the central business block in Ashburton along East Street, either between Moore and Tancred or Tancred…

Greg McCreanor

Sun, 22 Jun 2014 18:00:59 +1200

A very lucky Alington coincidence....
A few weeks after receiving the adoption material from Wellington in 1990, some photos were developed at the photo lab I was running at Circular Quay, Sydney. There were photos of Alington gravestones, obviously taken in England. I scribbled a note on the packet with…

Greg McCreanor

Sun, 22 Jun 2014 17:36:15 +1200

The Ancestry tree is probably the one I posted around 2005.
I visited the Winter family between 2000 and 2005. The very nice couple I spoke to, who quite happily accepted my research, warned me that the family historian would never accept an illegitimate birth in the family. That person…

Greg McCreanor

Sun, 22 Jun 2014 16:30:48 +1200

The Feb.1912 death notice for Amelia Coleman describes her as dying at ' The Ganges ' and her death certificate says she died at 78 Bristol Street. Tomorrow I visit 78 Bristol !

David Haywood

Fri, 20 Jun 2014 01:39:58 +1200

The residences of the Colemans and Eliza (nee Webb) Winter as per Wises’ Street Directory 1894-1895 (as shown on a Christchurch map from 1923):

W = Eliza (nee Webb) Winter residence
C = Probable residence of George & Amelia Coleman
? = Another probable residence of George & Amelia Coleman (this is…

David Haywood

Thu, 19 Jun 2014 09:11:46 +1200

The Coleman’s adoption statements also from Greg McCreanor:

The statement says:

__George Coleman sworn swith. I am retired master mariner and a Justice of the Peace residing at ChCh. I am applying to adopt this child Eileen Winter. The mother left the child about four years ago. She was left…

David Haywood

Thu, 19 Jun 2014 08:57:55 +1200

A possible baptism certificate for the adopted baby from Greg McCreanor:

I found this baptism in the ChCh Public Library card index back in the 90s...

Mary Hilda Ann Winter. Born Dec 9th 1891. Baptised April 12th 1893. Sponsor: Miss Torlesse. Priest: W.S.Bean.

The date of birth matches, but the…

David Haywood

Wed, 18 Jun 2014 22:29:33 +1200

I received this email via the site from Greg McCreanor today:

Thanks for posting that, Russell. I’ve been in touch with Greg; he has some interesting material, which I will report here soon.

If he’s amenable, I’m also hoping to ask Greg if he has any recollections of his grandmother…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 18 Jun 2014 13:38:09 +1200

Massive thanks to David for discovering the original documents and researching them and to everybody else for contributing to the discussion.

Yes, it is intriguing. Warm fuzzies all round is fantastic and it's got me thinking you guys would be brilliant at finding who my other halfs Father was. Many…

Russell Brown

Wed, 18 Jun 2014 11:25:35 +1200

I received this email via the site from Greg McCreanor today:

Massive thanks to David for discovering the original documents and researching them and to everybody else for contributing to the discussion. Hilda Annie Webb became Eileen Winter Coleman after being adopted by George and Amelia Coleman, married my grandfather…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 17 Jun 2014 09:41:50 +1200

Another circularity: a Chapman...
Maybe Wallace Chapman might be interested for an evolving Sunday Morning spot?
It could add some 'geneal' to the generally genial dawn discourse on his sabbath sun up salon...

Hebe

Tue, 17 Jun 2014 09:09:28 +1200

Another circularity: a Chapman family has been established for many years near Methven at Inverary Station.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:17:34 +1200

Homer and Away?
Shall we call the Chapmans “Series Two”?
or On Second Looking into Chapmans, with Homer Work
– now the bull on a grand has become artistic shorthand for epiphany!
and the corgis are back in place, too...

Lynley Chapman

Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:22:37 +1200

I will email you what I have on the Chapman line Charles but at first glance back at my files there is no relation to your Henry Samuel Chapman.

Hilary Stace

Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:49:05 +1200

Is that the Chapman who founded the Chapman Trip law firm?

Hebe

Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:14:30 +1200

Yours is no hijack: people around New Zealand were waiting for another story to unfold. Shall we call the Chapmans "Series Two"?

Charles Home

Mon, 16 Jun 2014 10:55:31 +1200

Hello Lynley
I would love to know more about your Chapman.
This HS Chapman was a Judge, first in Australia then in New Zealand. He lost his wife and three children in the London disaster. In 1868 he married his second wife, Selina Frances Carr from Ireland. He died in…

Lynley Chapman

Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:20:05 +1200

Hello again Charles. My husband's surname Chapman emerges from an illegitimate baby boy being born in Dunedin in 1877 and apparently "adopted" by the mother's married sister and husband Henry Chapman.

I need to check my files but I don't think your Henry Samuel is connected. I will certainly be…

Charles Home

Mon, 16 Jun 2014 07:09:54 +1200

Dear Lynley
By coincidence, I have Chapmans back to the 1700s as my mother was a Chapman! You might be familiar with another ancestor Henry Samuel CHAPMAN, of Dunedin, who had the most desperately sad events in his life. The tragedy of the SS London in 1866. Perhaps he is…

David Haywood

Sun, 15 Jun 2014 21:52:32 +1200

Hi Charles,

Great to hear from you! Apologies for the late reply, I have been up the other end of the country at my grandfather's book launch.

You certainly have some very interesting relatives in the Alingtons. I particularly like the sound of Rev John Alington and his sermons in…

Lynley Chapman

Sun, 15 Jun 2014 10:09:20 +1200

Hello Charles. I am sorely tempted to write blog posts on the brickwalls and adoptions in my family history on the off chance that someone like you pops up with a long record to refer to and to share new findings with.

I have no connection to this fascinating story…

Charles Home

Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:19:07 +1200

Dear all
This has been a most fascinating read. Should have gone to bed ages ago, but had to read it (mostly) through. I'm thrilled to have stumbled onto it.
George Hildebrand Alington was my great great uncle, being the brother (actually one of eight brothers) of my great grandmother…

Lynley Chapman

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:44:40 +1200

Thanks Ian. Eliza had some very interesting people in her life.

I've contacted a fellow researcher who descends from BUNT to see if this chap belongs in her line....

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:08:23 +1200

Well done that woman!
I see the Bunt, clearly, now!
...so that's Grocery Salesman,
after his name on the wedding register
aaaahah...
...born in Christchurch, in 1880
Didn't come out from Cornwall then...
oh well.

I'm liking the sound of that Primitive Methodist Literary and Debating Society, though being…

SteveH

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:15:07 +1200

Birth certificates of Eliza’s supposed illigitimate children:

Horace Clement Wilfred Webb
Hilda Annie Webb
Berty Alfred Forster

All three transcribed by DIA. I wonder what is in the original register entries that we are not allowed to see!

Lynley Chapman

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:10:15 +1200

I think the name is John Martin BUNT and here is a possible interesting link with photo:
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc03Cycl-t1-body1-d3-d29-d3.html

Mr. John Martin Bunt, Secretary of the Canterbury Grocers' Assistants' Industrial Union of Workers, was elected to that position in May, 1901, and re-elected in September of the same year. Mr. Bunt…

David Haywood

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:37:44 +1200

I wonder if the ‘John Martin Busch(sp?)’ might be her elder brother John
– after a name change to keep the Maiden/family name of Martin

Interesting idea...

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:32:32 +1200

4. Also interesting is that none of Eliza’s family were witnesses.
I wonder if the 'John Martin Busch(sp?)' might be her elder brother John
– after a name change to keep the Maiden/family name of Martin or is it Martini?
(as on the wedding certificate maiden name field)

Lynley Chapman

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:21:04 +1200

I'm no expert but an abandoned 3x gt grandmother of mine was allowed to remarry on the basis that a judge agreed that her husband had not been seen for many years.

Divorces back in the olden days were expensive. Tough times for women left with a brood of children…

David Haywood

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:02:30 +1200

Was the divorce Eliza sought through the courts ever granted David?

I had assumed it was — since it was all in the official archives and there was oodles of paperwork. But now that you mention it, I wonder why they didn't put "divorcée" on the certificate for her second…

Lynley Chapman

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:14:09 +1200

Was the divorce Eliza sought through the courts ever granted David?

The certificates have proved to be very useful in this instance. Sometimes you have to pay out the money to get answers.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:40:15 +1200

electron eyes...
....concurs with your edit.

David Haywood

Thu, 12 Jun 2014 00:03:58 +1200

Birth certificates of Eliza's supposed illigitimate children:

Horace Clement Wilfred Webb
Hilda Annie Webb
Berty Alfred Forster

SUMMARY OF RELEVANT DATA:

1. Horace Clement Wilfred Webb
Birth location: Frederick Street, Dunedin
Mother's name: Eliza Ann Webb
Mother's place of birth: Ramsgate, Kent, England
Mother's age: 32

COMMENTS: the baby's place…

David Haywood

Wed, 11 Jun 2014 23:33:00 +1200

Marriage certificate Eliza Ann Winter, 1898.

1. The age on this certificate implies a birthdate between 29 November 1864 and 28 November 1865, which doesn’t quite fit with the burial details (age at death implied birth between 15 October 1863 to 14 October 1864).
2. But the place of birth…

David Haywood

Wed, 11 Jun 2014 22:47:27 +1200

Marriage certificate Eliza Ann Webb, 1882

1. The marriage date is the same as that on the divorce papers.
2. The witnesses match the names on the census and arrival records that SteveH cleverly unearthed – this confirms our assumption that Susan Webb was Eliza’s mother and Minnie her sister.…

David Hood

Wed, 11 Jun 2014 19:42:53 +1200

Suddenly, Public Address gets swamped by people clicking the refresh button on this thread while awaiting developments :)

David Haywood

Wed, 11 Jun 2014 19:22:40 +1200

Now arrived! Will post later tonight. I can promise a surprise (well, not much of a surprise to me, but a surprise to some...)

SteveH

Wed, 11 Jun 2014 12:52:44 +1200

I’ll post the BDM results here as they come to hand (eight days, according to BDM).

Not arrived yet? I'm getting impatient.

David Haywood

Mon, 02 Jun 2014 22:01:57 +1200

Oh, and see update to this post:

David Haywood

Mon, 02 Jun 2014 21:17:18 +1200

I’ve just had a big spend-up at BDM – hopefully this should provide the information (names, dates, signatures, handwriting, etc.) to nail down all the loose ends.

I’ll post the BDM results here as they come to hand (eight days, according to BDM).

I’m also going to write a post…

Hilary Stace

Sun, 01 Jun 2014 20:32:12 +1200

Thanks but I drive past Karori library several times a week so could easily stop there and look at the book myself. But does it mention any more about the Alington for whom Alington Road is named? Fanny Irvine-Smith (mentioned above) says he was an early school teacher. I wonder…

Bodmin

Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:55:56 +1200

I have a copy of "Karori & its people" and there are multiple references to Alington in the index , Alington Architects, Bill Alington, & Margeret Alington are all mentioned. Bill was a well respected architect who retired in 2000.

Happy to copy details of references if they may help.

John

Lynley Chapman

Sun, 01 Jun 2014 11:12:30 +1200

Thanks David! I have thanked the lister. My inquiring (!) mind woke me in the wee hours with the thought of baptism records as another avenue for details re parents.

Enjoy your cycling with the small fry.

David Haywood

Sun, 01 Jun 2014 10:37:50 +1200

From this entry in the THE CYCLOPEDIA OF NEW ZEALAND:

THE REV. JOHN HOLLAND, Vicar of St. Bartholomew’s, was born in Lancashire. England, and was educated at St. Augustine’s College, Canterbury, Kent. He was ordained deacon in 1877, and priest in the following year, and became a missionary; as such…

David Haywood

Sun, 01 Jun 2014 10:14:21 +1200

From the inquiring mind of Lynley Chapman:

Good morning David.

I have just received small photos of George Coleman and Amelia Mary Coleman from a list member off NZ rootsweb – she contacted a distant cousin – no name offered sadly.

Here they are – Amelia somewhat overpowered by a…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 22:59:32 +1200

Horace Clement Wilfred WEBB, born 1890. Died 1916 at the Somme, WW1, Buried in Armentieres, France. He enlisted in Whangarei. Recorded his mother Mrs E Webb, East Belt, ChCh as his NOK.

Very interesting! I believe I know where our Eliza Ann Winter/Kennard lived until 1914, and it was never…

Lynley Chapman

Sat, 31 May 2014 22:42:13 +1200

I had a sniff around the NZSG Index Version 5 for Eliza Ann's children.

Cyril John Martin Winter, born 1883, married Amy Charlotte EVERETT in 1913. He died in ChCh in 1943, Probate in ChCh Archives. Occupation: Tailor. He appears to have lived for many years at 6 Hendon St,…

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 22:32:30 +1200

Vina Isabella Winter – unusual name. Probably a contraction of her aunt Malvina’s name.

Nice spotting, I'm sure that's it.

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 22:20:37 +1200

There are school records for her Winter children starting St Albans school in March 1892, though her address is listed as Crescent Rd:

Hells bells, Steve, your fact-finding is positively superhuman! Bloody well done!

I’ve also come to the same conclusion RE: Eliza Ann Winter, Caledonian Road, 1893, being the…

Hebe

Sat, 31 May 2014 22:00:12 +1200

Vina Isabella Winter – unusual name. Probably a contraction of her aunt Malvina’s name.

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 21:37:24 +1200

Genealogy amongst the archeology then at Central Library?

Depressingly, yes!

And, heck, I wonder if I explained myself properly — I can access the NZ electoral rolls, no problem (I mentioned Eliza Ann Webb of Montreal Street upthread), but I just couldn't find Amelia Mary Coleman in 1893.

However --…

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 20:44:47 +1200

Eliza Ann Webb Reg # 11721 19 Montreal St, Storekeeper

Eliza Ann Webb Reg # 14663 19 Montreal St, Storekeeper

Eliza Winter Reg # 3373 Riversleigh, Avonside, Domestic Duties

Eliza Ann Winter Reg # 12179 Caledonian Road, St Albans, Household Duties

Obviously there is some potential for confusion with 3…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 18:47:23 +1200

I can put you in touch with Bill – spoke to him relatively recently and I know where he is.

Thank you, Nicky — much appreciated!

Lynley Chapman

Sat, 31 May 2014 18:03:16 +1200

Genealogy amongst the archeology then at Central Library?

To further confound things. I have been back on my old laptop to run the Version 5 Index CD and lo from the 1893 E/R for NZ Women:

Eliza Ann Webb Reg # 11721 19 Montreal St, Storekeeper

Eliza Ann Webb Reg…

Nicky McCreanor

Sat, 31 May 2014 17:36:13 +1200

I can put you in touch with Bill – spoke to him relatively recently and I know where he is.

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 17:22:30 +1200

Thanks, Lynley! If all else fails, I believe the main library in CHCH has the roll available – so I can check when I next visit the ruins.

Lynley Chapman

Sat, 31 May 2014 16:51:53 +1200

The 1893 Electoral Roll for Women is available on the website Findmypast.

Amelia Mary Coleman is indexed but I don't have a subscription to the site so I cannot access the actual image. Sorry about that David.

Someone else may have a sub and can help with a screen shot.

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 16:48:17 +1200

Connection between W.H. Wynn Williams (the solicitor who paid the £20 to Mrs E.A. Williams) and the Alington family.

0wynn+williams+alington--" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">In July 1888, Wynn Williams was acting as solicitor to Herbert Alington (GH Alington's brother).

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 16:32:31 +1200

Some information on Rev Holland (one of the signatories to the adoption letter)…

13 August 1889: He was at St Paul’s, Papanui beginning an 18 month appointment.

22 July 1891: He was lecturing in Ashbuton to raise funds for Rakaia church. (So probably appointed to a position there by this…

Lynley Chapman

Sat, 31 May 2014 16:20:49 +1200

Details obsessed in genealogy is a very good attribute...

This data was from an old NZ Genealogical Society Index CD, Version 5 which has been superseded. Not sure I can do better than this for you at the moment.

I have put the word out to see if the Women…

Lynley Chapman

Sat, 31 May 2014 16:04:22 +1200

"My" Pemley is a great name to trace, "my" John MORRISON not so much....

Goose chases up the wrong tree and those gnarly brick walls all add to the genie soup for sure Steve.

Asking questions, talking to others and sharing head scratching data all helps I find in my…

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 14:59:11 +1200

Though in an odd co-incidence there was a Malvinia (note extra ‘i’) Webb in Christchurch, living on Webb street very near to the Colemans (she appears to have been no relation to Malvina Webb). Malvinia Webb married Robert Ewing McDougall of the CHCH Art Gallery fame.

I noticed her when…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 14:09:43 +1200

I forgot to mention one of the more compelling factors: “Malvina”. Searching for “Mary Webb” in the 1861 census returns 2198 records. “Eliza Webb” gives 612. But there is only one “Malvina Webb” (though there are other potential matches such as “M Webb”). Genealogists love obscure names!

Cracking!

Though in…

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 13:57:21 +1200

Your work here looks convincing that we have Eliza Ann/e’s birth family.

I think it's always good to highlight the inconsistencies and present the evidence for and against a conclusion. When I'm dealing with people many generations back I'm always very aware that if there is just one incorrect link…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 13:43:32 +1200

The 1893 Electoral Roll for Women(such a useful resource!!) finds:

Eliza Ann WINTER, Domestic duties, Caledonian Rd, St Albans

Amelia COLEMAN, Domestic duties, Webb St, St Albans

Winifred B ALINGTON, Dom duties, Methven.

I don’t know ChCh – would Eliza have been a neighbour to the Colemans?

Hi Lynley, the…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 13:35:57 +1200

The ages are slightly out but that’s not uncommon. For Susan I believe the 1871 census age is incorrect (probably 36 was incorrectly transcribed as 30); the 1861 census has her age as 26 and her death record has it as 87 in 1921 so those two both match the…

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 12:57:29 +1200

Assisted emigration record for Thomas F Webb and wife Mary Ann.
("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11000-41209-96?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1874 > Duke of Edinburgh > image 42 of 71; citing National Archives, Wellington.)

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 12:55:05 +1200

Assisted emigration record for Susan Webb and family.
("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11774-137517-25?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1878 > Waitangi > image 58 of 64; citing National Archives, Wellington.)

Lynley Chapman

Sat, 31 May 2014 12:54:11 +1200

Other more learned and experienced genealogists have told me that Census records are rarely accurate – transcription errors, enumerators having difficult with accents/dialects, literacy issues amongst the population, people not having calendars to mark birthdays and the passing years, informants making errors, family members using names for people in the…

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 12:53:17 +1200

Assisted emigration record for Malvina and Mary E Webb.
("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12063-102711-46?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1877 > Waipa > image 21 of 54; citing National Archives, Wellington)

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 12:48:32 +1200

The 1861 census record. Transcription:

Thomas Webb, head, 25, Sailor, born Gorran, Cornwall
Susan Webb, wife, 26, born St Austle, Cornwall
Malvina Webb, daughter, 5, born St Austle, Cornwall
John Henry Hosking Webb, son, 1, born St Austle, Cornwall

Also I noticed that next door there is another Thomas Webb…

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 12:42:32 +1200

Do you take it that Eliza Ann was ‘Annie’ and Melinda was ‘Minnie’? That would make sense (as these were names that both gave to their daughters) but the ages don’t appear to match.

Yes, that's how I interpreted the names. Lynley mentioned that Eliza used Ann or Anne on…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 12:01:26 +1200

I think this almost certainly rules out any close connection between Eliza and Thomas Frederick.

The 1887-88 Wises’ Directory shows a William Winter, labourer, just across Caledonian Road from Thomas Frederick Webb – possibly this William Winter being the unpleasant husband of Eliza?

The 1894-95 Wises’ Directory still shows William…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 11:36:22 +1200

I have found the shipping records for Eliza’s family on familysearch.org.

Genius! Though the ages are a bit confusing in places — Susan was 30 in 1871 and 44 six years later in 1877.

Do you take it that Eliza Ann was 'Annie' and Melinda was 'Minnie'? That would make…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 31 May 2014 11:34:24 +1200

I am puzzled about the naming of Alington Road which starts by Karori West school

Wellington Library resources reveal:
'Allington Road' keeps alive the memory of the first Karori schoolmaster in the sixties.
not sure if that is 1960s or 1860s
there is a whole Chinatown to be got out…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 31 May 2014 11:23:25 +1200

**Tu,t tut, tut....*
...poor Mr Buttle…
one of my all time favourite movies!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wh2b1eZFUM
and still a movie for our times...

ps: there's a great Carl Barks' Donald Duck story with the same premise, involving a fly and demolishing the wrong house.

Hilary Stace

Sat, 31 May 2014 10:58:09 +1200

Re the Karori Alington connection, I am puzzled about the naming of Alington Road which starts by Karori West school and goes up the hill. The road to Makara goes off it. This area was developed from the 1930s. My parents bought a 1930s house in Hathaway Avenue, off Alington…

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 10:56:17 +1200

I have found the shipping records for Eliza's family on familysearch.org. Her older sisters arrived first, followed by Susan with the other children. The father, Thomas, was not with them:
The "Waipa", arrived Lyttleton 24 Jan 1877:
Malvina Webb of Cornwall, 21, single, housemaid
Mary E Webb of Cornwall, 15,…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 10:40:17 +1200

The verse is from what appears to have been or be a popular ?Non-Conformist hymn, and I think you’re fully justified in reading meaningful nuances in the headstone as a whole

Heck — what a gloomy hymn! Mind you, some of the other verses could have made for an even…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 10:37:28 +1200

Archaic; a widow, from the Old French ‘relicte’ (woman) left behind…
(also a vestigial biological remnant or refugee).

I knew the biological meaning and thought it just meant offspring. Duh. Why didn't I look it up?

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 10:35:11 +1200

So Thomas Frederick Webb born about 1854, died 1935. Mother was Mary Ann (born about 1820, died 1887), father was Thomas Webb. I’m not sure how Thomas Frederick could be related to Eliza. They’re not siblings and both of their father’s names are Thomas so they are very unlikely to…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 31 May 2014 09:55:23 +1200

Vestigial vassal?
“relict” probably means she was the wife of the late Thomas Webb
Archaic; a widow, from the Old French ‘relicte’ (woman) left behind…
(also a vestigial biological remnant or refugee).

SteveH

Sat, 31 May 2014 09:32:45 +1200

"August 31 [1887], Mary Ann, relict of the late Thomas Webb, and mother of Mr Thomas F, Webb, Caledonian read, St Albans, aged 67 years. Deeply regretted."

She’s the 67-year-old offspring of the late Thomas Webb and the mother of Mr Thomas F. Webb. I’m still thinking about that.

I…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 31 May 2014 09:14:21 +1200

…down the Time Team Tunnel
The red circle outlines George Hildegard Alington’s grave….
…there was a gender reassignment as well!?
I didn’t see that coming!

Just how would the ‘elevator pitch’ for the movie go?

[EDIT: DH – thanks Ian, now fixed!]

ChrisW

Sat, 31 May 2014 08:08:20 +1200

The inscription seems a bit pointed.
David – splendid photo and story with it. I’ve followed this thread with interest though without fully engaging with all the detail as it’s unfolded, but still I appreciate the power of your experience in excavating through the lichens and metaphors covering this fallen…

ChrisW

Sat, 31 May 2014 08:02:37 +1200

I just realised that Bill Alington who Nicky McCreanor mentioned above (hello Nicky), and I know of as a significant modernist architect in Wellington, and as the husband of the late Margaret Alington historian, is actually William Hildebrand Alington b 1929 in the Turnbull records.
Where (with the aid of…

David Haywood

Sat, 31 May 2014 02:02:55 +1200

A hypothesis explodes:

My leading hypotheses are:

1. Eliza Ann Winters was from a rich family.

2. Alington was funding the divorce so that he could marry her. As I said upthread, the receipt for the £20 that he paid to Eliza was to the same solicitors that handled the…

Hebe

Fri, 30 May 2014 23:58:12 +1200

That cemetery is freaking amazing. An ex's family has a compound up there: what a gothic place to rest up for eternity: howling summer norwesters, freezing in winter. And always the withering wind.

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 22:31:23 +1200

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 22:26:02 +1200

I daresay that if you like graveyards (I don't) then you would think Methven's cemetery a particularly beautiful one. It is surrounded by high hedges and separated from the road by a copse of trees — making it feel very isolated and serene.

Without the assistance of Emma Hart (girl…

Hilary Stace

Fri, 30 May 2014 22:17:03 +1200

Here is his Wikipedia page. One of the PA readers must know him, or one of his children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Alington_(architect)

Hilary Stace

Fri, 30 May 2014 22:13:22 +1200

SteveH

Fri, 30 May 2014 22:02:37 +1200

The details-obsessed scientist in me would like to see every ‘fact’ (dates, etc.) on a given family tree hyperlinked back to the raw data (birth certificates, etc) – but as you all point out, in genealogy even the raw data may be unreliable.

That's pretty much what I do, as…

Lynley Chapman

Fri, 30 May 2014 21:53:29 +1200

BTW Chapman Street has no connection to my husband's family – an illegitimate baby and an "adoption" within the family in a very suspicious set up saw Chapman become the surname.....if only someone could find some documents in the wainscoting in a house in Dunedin and confirm my hypothesis on…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 21:53:11 +1200

According to expert genealogist Ngairedith, Eliza Ann (nee Webb) Winter had five known siblings, one of whom was:

* 1862 – 1934 Mary Ellen Martin Webb – married James STONE(S) in 1877, had 12 children, buried Methven

Above is Mary Ellen (nee Webb) Stone’s grave. The red circle outlines George…

Lynley Chapman

Fri, 30 May 2014 21:42:32 +1200

Exciting to hear from a near relative to one branch of this puzzle.

A genealogist sources all their data for each person in the tree as Dianne had mentioned. So in some cases the scientist in you could be well satisfied but in other cases not so much due to…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 21:37:00 +1200

All Saints (Anglican) Church in Mathven at the intersection of Alington and Chapman Streets.

I'd bet $100 that this is where Alington, Rev Holland, and Captain Coleman met and signed the adoption letter.

Mind you, it might not have had an office in those days. In which case I bet…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 21:24:09 +1200

Another puzzle in my head is how did Eliza Ann/e fund a divorce and lawyers for court cases when destitute. Did she have a benefactor? Perhaps the good Captain?

Mine too (particularly as she described herself as "destitute" in the divorce papers).

Also note that she had to travel to…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 21:15:47 +1200

SteveH, John Farrell, and Lynley Chapman,

Thank you so much for your very helpful comments. I can see that genealogy is something of an art — in addition to the information science of the basic fact-finding!

The details-obsessed scientist in me would like to see every 'fact' (dates, etc.) on…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 21:04:51 +1200

Hello, I don’t have any immediate answers for you, but Frederick McCreanor was related to my late father (I think a second cousin), and my father was also a friend of Bill Alington (who lives in Wellington). I do have contacts with McCreanor family in Chch who are researching family…

Nicky McCreanor

Fri, 30 May 2014 20:53:29 +1200

Hello, I don't have any immediate answers for you, but Frederick McCreanor was related to my late father (I think a second cousin), and my father was also a friend of Bill Alington (who lives in Wellington). I do have contacts with McCreanor family in Chch who are researching family…

Lynley Chapman

Fri, 30 May 2014 19:37:13 +1200

In my experience with genealogy there needs to be a lot of source checking and seeking out a wide range of sources and then joining of dots to get confirmation that you have the right person. Even official documents, such as death certificates can be inaccurate due the informant's misinformation…

John Farrell

Fri, 30 May 2014 19:18:42 +1200

Printouts or certificates may not have accurate information. I saw recently the birth printout of a friend's great grandfather; it had his parent's' names, and date and place of marriage. I have been unable to find any trace of the parents named, or of any marriage for them. The birth…

SteveH

Fri, 30 May 2014 19:07:42 +1200

Is there a trail of ‘references’ which leads back to someone who has definitely sighted the actual certificates?

Ideally every “fact” a genealogist is presenting should be backed by references to where it came from.

The general wisdom is that the indexes are not reliable enough – you need to…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 18:46:17 +1200

Have been poking around Methven today (see street name in photo above). More later...

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 18:27:30 +1200

Post natal depression I think it would be classified. I think she had 4 or 5 under 6years of age by this time. She was 32.

Jesus wept — so many tragic stories! Those were the good old days, eh. The days that certain political parties (whose leader/founder's name might…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 18:23:20 +1200

In an potential “trip up your research” coincidence, the Mother of Bertie (presumably his adoptive mother) is also named Eliza.

I know that I’m a crusty old scientist/engineer, but one thing I’ve been wondering about is the sourcing of birth, death, and marriage information in genealogy. Is there a trail…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 18:10:04 +1200

Poor Eliza didn’t have much luck with the fellas. I looked for husband #2 Fred Kennard on Papers Past and it looks like he abandoned Eliza and the family in 1899

Gosh, poor Eliza. It just seems to get worse and worse for her... what a tragic series of incidents.…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 18:08:29 +1200

I could not find Eliza Ann residing with Mr Alington, as his housekeeper, on electoral rolls but I did not have all the relevant data with me.

Thanks, Lynley! I'm also pursuing this line of enquiry (will post more later tonight).

Ross Mason

Fri, 30 May 2014 17:18:28 +1200

Here is the Inquest.

Post natal depression I think it would be classified. I think she had 4 or 5 under 6years of age by this time. She was 32.

Ross Mason

Fri, 30 May 2014 17:17:56 +1200

Papers Past make fascinating reading and one discovers all sorts of family surprises ansd tragedies. These one is about my Great Grandfather’s first wife. Ne Louisa May Batt.

They did things differently back then. Brutal, and to the point. [[ http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS18840913.2.48&srpos=12&e=–1883—1885–100–1—-0%22philip+mason%22– | Here is a column of suicides from the Auckland…

Lynley Chapman

Fri, 30 May 2014 16:04:34 +1200

I agree. I am wondering how Geo Alington and the father/s of Horace and Bertie Alfred treated her.

Eliza appears to be on her own in the 1905/6 Electoral rolls which record her as living at 9 Dean St and Fred Kennard at Park Rd, St Albans, carpenter

In 1900…

Petra Jane

Fri, 30 May 2014 15:33:54 +1200

Poor Eliza didn't have much luck with the fellas. I looked for husband #2 Fred Kennard on Papers Past and it looks like he abandoned Eliza and the family in 1899 – she took a case against him for desertion and was awarded 17/6 per week maintenance. The Magistrate's Court sentenced…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 30 May 2014 13:05:39 +1200

...all the basic human elements:
Where are the food, shelter and cycling threads in that list then?

...not to mention joy and illumination?

;- )

Lynley Chapman

Fri, 30 May 2014 12:25:14 +1200

I nipped into the library while out this morning. The microfiche birth records in our local library ( transcribed manually from the birth registers, not digitally scanned as the online records today are) give the birth of Hilda Annie WEBB being registered in Christchurch in the first quarter of 1892.…

Emma Hart

Fri, 30 May 2014 10:43:21 +1200

Although perhaps the Colemans were told that Eileen’s birth was, say, July 1891 as it would put Eileen’s date of birth before the divorce had been applied for, i.e. while Eliza was still legitimately married to Winter.

Ah, yes! That would make sense of it. I was puzzling over this…

Hilary Stace

Fri, 30 May 2014 09:54:55 +1200

Ditto. I went to a fascinating talk about Alexander W Bickerton yesterday. He was one of the first professors at Canterbury university (later fired), and a slightly scandalous citizen of Christchurch, founder of a commune, prolific writer to the newspaper, and developer of pleasure gardens in Wainoni, which some the…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 09:36:13 +1200

David, I’ve been promoting this thread heavily elsewhere, but just wanted to say, this is one of the best PAS posts OF ALL TIME.

Thanks, JacksonP!

This letter does indeed seem to be connected to all the basic human elements: birth, death, marriage, assault, desertion, fornication with “common" prostitutes, embezzlement,…

JacksonP

Fri, 30 May 2014 07:02:25 +1200

David, I've been promoting this thread heavily elsewhere, but just wanted to say, this is one of the best PAS posts OF ALL TIME. Great distraction from all that ails us. Cheers.

Graeme Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 06:42:26 +1200

The dates of birth , christening or baptism often get mixed up.

Graeme Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 06:40:21 +1200

I wonder if the stamps have any value?

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 01:16:16 +1200

… and also the promissory note (above).

These seemed unrelated until I noticed the “Payable at Johnston, Mills & Joyce Solicitors, Gloucester Street, Christchurch”.

This is surely the same “Johnstone [sic]” on the envelope (which contains a message quite unrelated to the promissory note).

AND the executor of Amelia Mary Coleman’s…

David Haywood

Fri, 30 May 2014 01:04:27 +1200

POSSIBLE BREAKTHROUGH…

I thought I’d go back and have a very careful look to see if anything else was in the location I discovered the Alington documents.

Bingo! I unearthed the apparently irrelevant envelope postmarked 1917 (above)…

Message continued below…

David Haywood

Thu, 29 May 2014 23:37:40 +1200

Here are the wills and divorce affidavits:

GH_Alington_Will.pdf

Divorce_affidavit_Eliza_Ann_Winter.pdf

George_Coleman_Will.pdf

[NOTE: Divorce_affidavit_Eliza_Ann_Winter.pdf seems to have a page missing. I'm not sure if this was missing from the original file, or whether I somehow forgot to copy it. I can visit CHCH again to check the original if anyone needs it.]…

David Haywood

Thu, 29 May 2014 22:36:39 +1200

More of the well-behaved Emma Hart’s detective work (with my assistance); the presumed grave of Alington’s daughter Eileen Winter Coleman.

There is a very slight question mark here for me in terms of the date and age of death, as this would imply a date of birth between 25 July…

Emma Hart

Thu, 29 May 2014 22:23:11 +1200

but then I discovered her special affinity to cemeteries

Hey, I was really well-behaved. I didn't even drag you off to make you look at the Jewish section of Linwood cemetery.

David Haywood

Thu, 29 May 2014 17:58:47 +1200

Have been out and about today with my friend and colleague Emma Hart.

I imagined that Emma would be the Watson to my Holmes, but then I discovered her special affinity to cemeteries. Emma shot about the place like an especially energetic Nancy Drew finding all the graves, while I…

David Haywood

Thu, 29 May 2014 17:48:46 +1200

Interesting that Eliza called her daughter by George Hildebrand…..Hilda.

It certainly points to Hilda being Eliza’s daughter. Also Hilda’s middle name “Annie” was the middle name of Eliza’s deceased daughter to Winter.

Link to suicide in March 1908, in Christchurch of Frederick KENNARD. More tough times for Eliza possibly.

Oh…

ngairedith

Thu, 29 May 2014 13:56:57 +1200

UPDATE
Eliza (as Webb, aged 31) had a son:
* 1895 – 1980 Berty Alfred Forster Webb
born 21 January 1895, he may have been adopted
– hope to get feedback on this through readers ...

Berty Alfred FORSTER (born 21 Jan 1895) died 23 Jan 1980 aged 85 & is…

Lynley Chapman

Thu, 29 May 2014 13:25:54 +1200

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=TC19080323.2.13.2

Link to suicide in March 1908, in Christchurch of Frederick KENNARD. More tough times for Eliza possibly.

Dianne Mitchell

Thu, 29 May 2014 12:54:20 +1200

Maybe in the frame of one of George H's paintings?

Dianne Mitchell

Thu, 29 May 2014 12:12:59 +1200

Interesting that Eliza called her daughter by George Hildebrand.....Hilda.
Now that makes me wonder if her other 2 children (while not with William Winter) may have the fathers' names included.
she may have wanted these children to be found and identified...as women in her situation often did in those days.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 29 May 2014 12:07:22 +1200

Testatrix of the trade…
Did I mention how much I love that freestyle ‘hellfire and redemption’ This is the last Will and Testament lettering!

The way the two ’is’ shapes set up a resonance at the next ‘s’ and then in the middle it goes all ‘pebble-in-pond’ at Will…
The…

Dianne Mitchell

Thu, 29 May 2014 12:03:06 +1200

Eliza An was 17-18yrs old…I’m sure it’s just a typo on Ngaire’s tree…she has it as 28yrs.

Ngaire's tree looks to be very well researched.

Dianne Mitchell

Thu, 29 May 2014 11:46:08 +1200

From the Tree on Ancestry owned by a McCreanor descendant…a very well researched tree by all accounts…sources cited etc.

Eliza Ann WEBB born 22 June 1864 in High Portpean, St Austell Parish, Cornwall, Eng.
The daughter of Thomas WEBB (1831-1871) and
Susan Best MARTIN (1834-1821 died in NZ)

Eliza Ann…

Hilary Stace

Thu, 29 May 2014 11:26:20 +1200

My son's paternal family has links to McCreanors. I'll ask the family historian if he knows of this husband Frederick.

It would be great to have some photos.

By the way, David, genealogical research can get addictive.

Hebe

Thu, 29 May 2014 09:42:21 +1200

possibly the thing that hid the documents was originally part of another house

My unruly mind keeps returning to this: what could it be? A fire surround? A built-in desk?

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 29 May 2014 07:43:55 +1200

rollickin' relics...
the thing that hid the documents was originally part of another house…
I often wonder how many little secretions and mysteries like this, are being lost as they smash, bash and trash all these houses in Chchch...

583 Madras Street is still there, by the way...
back section…

Hebe

Thu, 29 May 2014 07:43:51 +1200

I’m intrigued about why the documents were at that house.

So am I. But possibly the thing that hid the documents was originally part of another house…

The plot thickens...again.

ngairedith

Thu, 29 May 2014 05:22:02 +1200

LAST WILL & TESTAMENT of Amelia Mary Coleman
http://www.familytreecircles.com/w-59340.html

David Haywood

Thu, 29 May 2014 00:18:15 +1200

A perusal of the Will of George Hildebrand Alington might offer something too:

Will do, Lynley!

I’m intrigued about why the documents were at that house.

So am I. But possibly the thing that hid the documents was originally part of another house...

Lynley Chapman

Wed, 28 May 2014 22:27:03 +1200

Ditto :-)

Hebe

Wed, 28 May 2014 22:03:59 +1200

Could your house have been owned by one of the “missing” children? I'm intrigued about why the documents were at that house.

Hebe

Wed, 28 May 2014 22:02:57 +1200

The house where Amelia Coleman died, The Ganges, 78 Bristol Street, right by the T intersection with Webb St, is still there: a large, run-down single-story villa with the original bosky and beautiful wrought-iron gates and a wild garden. See google maps.

Lynley Chapman

Wed, 28 May 2014 22:00:34 +1200

Great confirmation from the Will David.

A perusal of the Will of George Hildebrand Alington might offer something too:
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22389902

Located at National Archives Christchurch.

I still think that the birth mother of the adopted girl lived so close by that she must have seen her daughter…..curious

Hebe

Wed, 28 May 2014 21:48:12 +1200

I suppose there could be a whole lot of reasons why the Alington files at the Turnbull were locked. High among the likely ones would be the existence of secret illegitimate children and the financial arrangements for them and their mothers.

David Haywood

Wed, 28 May 2014 21:24:15 +1200

Yes, she must have been getting help from somewhere. If she had all the kids with her she would have been caring for six under the age of 10 when George Alington gave her the 20 pounds.

Not to mention paying Stringer & Cresswell all the legal costs for her divorce,…

SteveH

Wed, 28 May 2014 20:05:53 +1200

But it’s a real mystery as to where the heck all those children went. Eliza couldn’t possibly have had them with her during all that, could she?

Yes, she must have been getting help from somewhere. If she had all the kids with her she would have been caring for…

SteveH

Wed, 28 May 2014 19:54:59 +1200

I’ve had another email from Ngaire directing me to her genealogy page:

http://www.familytreecircles.com/draft-2-49232.html

Ngaire, on your page you've got:
Eliza Ann Webb married (aged 33), to William John David WINTER (1848-1942) 4 May 1882 at her mother's residence, Madras Street, Christchurch
Is it William who is aged 33 at the…

David Haywood

Wed, 28 May 2014 19:14:28 +1200

Those two certificates could well rule out a connection but are less likely to be convincing in terms of confirming a connection. Records that old will only have ages, which are often imprecise, so it won’t be a definitive as birth dates would be.

Darn! What a shame they don’t…

SteveH

Wed, 28 May 2014 18:47:54 +1200

I don’t suppose any expert genealogists could rustle up a copy of Miss E A Webb’s marriage certificate to Mr Webb (which presumably would give her date of birth) and then a copy of Hilda Annie Webb’s (Eileen’s presumed birth name) birth certificate. If the date of birth for Mrs…

David Haywood

Wed, 28 May 2014 18:05:37 +1200

No problem, Ngaire, I've also uploaded the second and final page of the will for you (above)...

I've also been wondering about the timing of Mrs E A Winter's divorce. Could there have been a plan for her and Alington to marry? Perhaps the Alington family intervened to make the…

ngairedith

Wed, 28 May 2014 17:46:50 +1200

good find David,
yes, I think there is quite a story yet to be told (I also thought of Eileen's changed name). The fact they were probably neighbours could mean they were such good friends that they wanted to give young Hilda a better future (they must have had intimate…

David Haywood

Wed, 28 May 2014 16:58:23 +1200

As per Lynley Chapman’s suggestion, I’ve looked up the will of the Mrs George Coleman (Amelia Mary Coleman) cited in the adoption letter (see attached).

It states that Eileen Winter Coleman is the “legally adopted daughter”, which gives absolute confirmation of the connection. There appears to be no other adopted…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 28 May 2014 09:29:48 +1200

Not just a cupboard but a truck-load of skeletons in my family!

Let me tell you about our bigamist , murder trial ......

Ross Mason

Wed, 28 May 2014 09:20:45 +1200

But your dates of the wedding and Winifred’s birth put paid to my admittedly unworthy hypothesis that Alington may have knocked up his soon-to-be-wife as well.

Knocked up. A fascinating phrase. The internet never lies so here is an explanation of it's history that might be embellished a bit but,…

B Jones

Wed, 28 May 2014 09:16:22 +1200

All we need now is some mysterious dresses with gold sewn into the seams, some opium, and some astrological tables.

David Haywood

Wed, 28 May 2014 08:30:22 +1200

Captain Coleman was for a long time a member of the Christchurch and Ashburton Bowling Clubs. He was also a Justice of the Peace for Ashbuton District

Mrs Coleman, and an adopted daughter, survive the deceased

Gosh, Ngaire, you're a genealogy machine!

So all those apparently different George Colemans are…

ngairedith

Wed, 28 May 2014 03:11:46 +1200

Ashburton Guardian, 2 October 1903
COLEMAN – On October 1st, at Christchurch, Captain George, dearly beloved husband of Amelia Mary Coleman. Aged 71 years. Deeply regretted.

Ashburton Guardian, 2 October 1903
We regret to have to chronicle the death of Captain George Coleman our respected fellow citizen, which occurred at…

SteveH

Wed, 28 May 2014 00:59:47 +1200

mother is listed as Eliza Anne Webb as opposed to the spelling apparently used by Eliza Ann ... apparently the BDM database is notoriously unreliable

Variations in spelling of an individual's name is quite common before the 20th century. Ann and Anne were very commonly used interchangeably. Note that it's…

David Haywood

Tue, 27 May 2014 22:52:33 +1200

I’ve had another email from Ngaire directing me to her genealogy page:

http://www.familytreecircles.com/draft-2-49232.html

According to Ngaire’s research we now have a birth name for Alington’s daughter: Hilda Annie Webb born 9 December 1891 (note that the birthdate doesn’t quite match the DOB for Eileen Winter Coleman given earlier in this…

Dianne Mitchell

Tue, 27 May 2014 22:42:02 +1200

It's quite common to find people enrolled in 2 or more different electorates at the same time. Especially in the 'olden days" like 1940;-))The main reason being that they have moved from one address to another without advising the electoral office.

I've found people in e.rolls who died years ago…

David Haywood

Tue, 27 May 2014 22:36:54 +1200

Based on these dates I wonder if it was Winifred’s impending birth that triggered the adoption.

Great sleuthing, SteveH!

Actually, I wonder if Alington's marriage on 12 April 1893 might explain the payment he appears to have made to the child's mother on 21st December 1892. Probably the first rule…

SteveH

Tue, 27 May 2014 20:56:13 +1200

If George’s marriage took place after the adoption of his daughter on November 24th, 1893, then when exactly was his first ‘legitimate’ child born in 1894 (her birth certificate is held by the National Library but not available online)? Did this have a precipitory effect on the timing of the…

Dinah Dunavan

Tue, 27 May 2014 20:52:31 +1200

Hi David. I had some correspondence over 10 years ago with the Methodist archivist in Christchurch. Sadly they didn’t turn up any new information. But a search of baptisms sounds like a worthwhile, albeit lengthy, endeavour. I’ll suggest it to a cousin with more time to spend poring over dusty…

Hilary Stace

Tue, 27 May 2014 20:42:42 +1200

Margaret Alington nee Broadhead was a very well known historian and Turnbull Library regular in Wellington until her death in 2012. Even has a Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Alington There is an Alington Road in Karori by Karori West school. What a pity she is no longer with us as she probably…

David Hood

Tue, 27 May 2014 19:58:20 +1200

Dinah, the Methodist archives were centralised in Christchurch, and had been closed since the earthquake (reopening last year). As one, if very time consuming, avenue, and were prepared to make the assumption that it was conducted through the church (and the additional assumption it is more likely to be all…

David Haywood

Tue, 27 May 2014 19:32:14 +1200

A tantalizing email! I have set up an PA account on this person's behalf and hopefully she will be able to offer further enlightenment (funny how technology tends to fail at the most inopportune moments)...

hello David,
I have tried & tried to sign in to the blog page discussing George…

Geoff Lealand

Tue, 27 May 2014 18:37:05 +1200

Old electoral rolls? They can be a can of worms. When I was last at the Turnbull Library, I flicked through rolls from the 1940s--to discover that my father appeared in two for the same year--one for a Christchurch electorate, where he appeared to be married, and one in Taranaki,…

SteveH

Tue, 27 May 2014 18:22:34 +1200

The chase of genealogy is such a buzz! Do you think there’d be much appetite for a NZ version of the WDYTYA franchise?

I don’t know if we could manage a local version but I think genealogy's appeal is broadening because it’s much more immediate now with so much online.

Dianne Mitchell

Tue, 27 May 2014 18:16:03 +1200

I'm sure the producers could find enough NZ celebrities to make a series. Mind you...there is a bit of an attrition rate...they search a huge number of celebs, but only continue the research if there is something to make a story out of. Most of we "kiwi's" of European/ UK…

Lynley Chapman

Tue, 27 May 2014 18:15:14 +1200

Interesting that Alex Turnbull Library has a "Restricted" note against Use/Reproduction on Eileen Winter Coleman's file.

Dinah Dunavan

Tue, 27 May 2014 18:11:26 +1200

If only someone would discover my great grandmother's papers while renovating their Christchurch house and blog about it.

Great gran was an unofficial adoption, probably in Dunedin, sometime about 1883. I have found some evidence that her adoptive parents had a bit more money than you'd expect a labourer to…

David Haywood

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:54:51 +1200

Turnbull holds Alington family papers and part of the archive is a listing for:

Papers relating to Eileen Winter Coleman

Now how the hell did I miss that? Well done, sir! That's the absolute final nail in the coffin. Case closed! (Though I'd still be extremely interested in any further…

Marg Couch

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:53:46 +1200

The chase of genealogy is such a buzz! Do you think there'd be much appetite for a NZ version of the WDYTYA franchise?

SteveH

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:28:15 +1200

Innit? I would watch the hell out of this show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Do_You_Think_You_Are%3F_%28British_TV_series%29

Emma Hart

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:27:18 +1200

cremated at Bromley Crematorium,ashes scattered in the rose gardens according to their card index

Did the index give a location for her plaque? Those rose gardens are just around the corner from me...

Aidan

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:20:05 +1200

1898/3379 Eliza Ann Winter Frederick Kennard

Sorry to be a pain, but another weird coincidence, I married a Kennard (not in NZ), Names eh? Maybe not as rare as I'd imagined ...

Bevan Shortridge

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:17:54 +1200

Turnbull holds Alington family papers and part of the archive is a listing for:

Papers relating to Eileen Winter Coleman
Date: 2010-2011
Ref: MS-Papers-11146-19
Quantity: 1 folder(s).
Physical Description: Mss (photocopies), typescripts
Use/Reproduction: RESTRICTED
Part of: Alington family : Papers of Alington and Broadhead families
Format: 1 folder(s), Manuscript

Perhaps…

Lynley Chapman

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:16:10 +1200

Thank you:-) and thanks to the chief cook!

Lynley Chapman

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:15:15 +1200

Not quite next door to each other but close enough for Eliza Ann Winter to see Eileen Winter Coleman IF she knew where her child went to be raised. Alington did not want Eliza to know but at 23 months of age I would think a mother would recognise her…

Dianne Mitchell

Tue, 27 May 2014 17:10:22 +1200

Eliza Ann's death details
Died at 583 Madras Street ( her son James' house) on 14 Oct 1942 aged 77 and cremated at Bromley Crematorium,ashes scattered in the rose gardens according to their card index. Death registered as 'Eliza Ann Kennard commonly known as Eliza Ann Winter '.

Emma Hart

Tue, 27 May 2014 16:55:05 +1200

but I would hazard a guess to say that Caledonian and Webb Streets in St Albans weren’t too far away.

They're about three blocks apart.

Dianne Mitchell

Tue, 27 May 2014 16:54:37 +1200

I have your letter...now digesting it. Hubby has been assigned to kitchen duties...I can't do all this sleuthing and cook at the same time;-))

Dianne Mitchell

Tue, 27 May 2014 16:52:59 +1200

Well...Eliza's maiden name was Webb...so could be a connection;-))!! And Eliza's mother Susan WEbb died in CHCH, so her family were there. I don't ChCH either...but I would hazard a guess to say that Caledonian and Webb Streets in St Albans weren't too far away.

Dianne Mitchell

Tue, 27 May 2014 16:50:18 +1200

more likely to be Wick(low) in Ireland, not USA LOL.

Hebe

Tue, 27 May 2014 16:49:11 +1200

can I just say this is top telly…

Sure is. Does anyone else have a mystery for the Miss Marples corner?

Bart Janssen

Tue, 27 May 2014 16:46:41 +1200

Just know where to look for certain things

That's a pretty good description of genius