Southerly by David Haywood

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Southerly: A Blog on Behalf of an Anarchist Glaswegian

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  • Ross Mason, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    AS does this current bunch of fiscal felons. “We need constant surveillance of the populace because… al-Qaeda… terrorists…. blah… mums and dads… business confidence …bl;ah blah blah. revenue stream … loony Left … blah…

    Add the Juries to this list!!!! They too would be watched!

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Austin,

    The Irish, it seems are to be voting in a referendum soon to abolish their Senate, which requires a constitutional amendment.

    This is of interest to this thread as their Senate seems to have some interesting ways of electing members, including members elected by university graduates, appointed by the Taosiach (PM), members elected from vocational panels (seems to be by sector - agriculture, labour etc).

    It seems that the criticisms are, in part, that the latter category, elected by the MPs/councilors, making up the majority of senators, end up being party candidates who are ex candidates for elected office. So the Senate ends up being filled with the friends and comrades of the national parties with elected representatives. Almost a sinecure.

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1027 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Danielle,

    I could not disagree more thoroughly with your post. In fact, I would like to encourage your post to bite me.

    Well be careful because it has sharp little teeth and may be “Infekshuss” as JK would say.
    Also there is clear supporting evidencec that hormones play an important part in behaviour modification.
    Also…

    And, um, can I just point out that “somebody think of the children” clauses think of the CHILDREN, rather than their parents, who being adults are also worthy of some form of representation.

    The somebodies that should be thinking of the children in the first instance would be the Mothers, as Nature intended. As for being adults, have you heard how Mothers of young children talk? its all Like goo goo gah gah diddums and “Who’s mommies big girl” an stuff. Can you imagine the chaos? “Its a bad bill but it is so young and cute, who could resist it?”
    As for representation should I propose several more upper houses? 1-5 year olds, 6-10 year olds all the way up to Octogenarian + and not restrict the numbers as some would be under represented, like bank robbers and sheep abusers so the only answer is an upper house of 4.1 ish million people minus the number of MPs, who would then claim to be under represented.

    :-D (for those that are so surrounded by silliness that they can’t tell the difference, like National MPs)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    The key to being funny is, I am reliably informed, making your audience laugh. Perhaps you could go on some sort of course for that?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Danielle,

    Perhaps you could go on some sort of course for that?

    But not the one you went to though... eh.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    The somebodies that should be thinking of the children in the first instance would be the Mothers, as Nature intended. As for being adults, have you heard how Mothers of young children talk? its all Like goo goo gah gah diddums and “Who’s mommies big girl” an stuff. Can you imagine the chaos? “Its a bad bill but it is so young and cute, who could resist it?”

    Steve, trolling like this isn't funny and it isn't clever. Please stop.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3891 posts Report Reply

  • JacksonP, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    Not sure what's going on here, but I'm sure it's not called for.

    I'd have to agree with Lilith Steve. This is not helping.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2011 • 2450 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    Dude, I'm not trying to make you laugh. I'm trying to shut you up.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Sigh.

    And this was a fun thought experiment.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Brent Jackson,

    I think it would be vital that those who are on the jury are not known. If they were known then they would be liable to pressure / bribery / harrassment. Perhaps the use of technology such as anonymous web connections would allow a limited form of discussion (eg pointing out relevant data on the web), and raising matters for consideration with each other.

    I think 1 year is too long. Perhaps 3 months would be better. Each jury member only has to understand the ramifications of the laws being passed, and either okay them, or turn them down due to particular clauses or effects.

    I think the mere presence of the juries would mean that legislation being passed would be better as controversal aspects would tend to be ameliorated to make them palatable to at least one the juries.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 619 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Steve, trolling like this isn’t funny and it isn’t clever. Please stop.,

    Not “Trolling” Not intending to be funny. Not trying to be clever.

    Not sure what’s going on here, but I’m sure it’s not called for.

    I’d have to agree with Lilith Steve. This is not helping.

    If you are not sure then why take “sides”?

    Dude, I’m not trying to make you laugh. I’m trying to shut you up.

    With all due respect, what gives you the right to “Shut me up”? I was merely illustrating the implausibility of your suggestion, albeit in an absurd construction and the ad hominem attack was, in my obviously unwanted opinion, unwarranted

    Sigh.

    And this was a fun thought experiment.

    And it still can be.
    I thought David’s Grandfathers idea was quite well thought out and very interesting but it was a head meet desk moment as soon as (insert some interest group here) started saying they should have a jury too because…
    That takes away from the whole premise of the suggestion and back into bickering about how life is so bad for X group and they are more important than the majority.
    Then there are the personal attacks. uncalled for, unhelpful and downright hurtful.

    Just because you misunderstand doesn’t make me the enemy.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    I have no right whatsoever to shut you up. I'm merely expressing a sincere wish that you would. :)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    as soon as (insert some interest group here) started saying they should have a jury too because…

    And you chose to use the most offensive tone possible to make your point.

    And if you'd actually read what was written instead of what you wanted to argue against you would have seen people suggesting that some groups might have something of value to conbtribute to the jury beyond their age.

    A discussion about the value of selecting juries on the basis of anything other than age should have been possible without resorting to an example certain to infuriate many of the audience here. For you to pretend innocence of that intent now is disingenuous at best.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • peterpeasant, in reply to Sacha,

    You are so correct.
    Bamboozling bureaucrats will always always defeat the judiciary and parliament given enough time.

    A year is a nano second to a an obfuscating bureaeacrat acting on "behalf" of a Minister..

    Otherwise the "aye Jeemy" idea has some merit.

    new zealand • Since Oct 2010 • 39 posts Report Reply

  • peterpeasant,

    Why are my posts not posted?

    new zealand • Since Oct 2010 • 39 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to peterpeasant,

    Why are my posts not posted?

    Perhaps you have your own personal editor looking out for you, in the way that Catholic children have guardian angels.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Perhaps you have your own personal editor looking out for you, in the way that Catholic children have guardian angels.

    Guardian angels are indeed editors, but here in NZ we have Herald angels who have outsourced their editors to overseas sweatshops.

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Jeremy Andrew,

    ...in NZ we have Herald angels who have outsourced their editors to overseas sweatshops.

    While Fairfax Editorial Services hubs in New Zealand layout their Australian papers... part of the A/NZ Closer Editorial Relationship perhaps?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7948 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    I have missed all the shenanigans. I simply pop in to say, David, how very much you look like your beloved grandfather.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Your point is valid though. But I think the one year term makes such influence difficult. It may be easy to buy off two juries but having to do it year after year is harder to do without someone blabbing and it is more expensive.

    One of the reasons our parliament isn't very corrupt is that if people get caught, there are consequences - they get screwed next election. If you're picking jurors at random from the electoral roll I'm not sure that there are enough consequences there. Yes I took money from Big Tobacco, but that money bought me a house and I'm not coming back to this jury again, so I'm good with that.

    You'd have to put in some strong anti-corruption oversight given that these people have so much power.

    Also your jury numbers would have to be odd or have a non-voting chair. You'd want an odd number of people voting to secure majorities.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Brent Jackson, in reply to Kyle Matthews,

    Also your jury numbers would have to be odd or have a non-voting chair. You’d want an odd number of people voting to secure majorities

    Not necessarily. A jury of 12 requiring a 7 / 5 split to pass would be perfectly acceptable. The fact that they are called juries, made me that they needed unanimous (or almost unanimous) votes to accept the legislation.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 619 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Not necessarily. A jury of 12 requiring a 7 / 5 split to pass would be perfectly acceptable. The fact that they are called juries, made me that they needed unanimous (or almost unanimous) votes to accept the legislation.

    Makes the even numbered person pointless in every vote. If it's a majority vote, there's no point having an even numbered number of voters. It doesn't matter so much if you've got a large number of voters (like parliament), but for a dozen, you'd be better going to 11 or 13 or 15 or something.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Hanson,

    Attachment

    Hi, responding to the original article from 2006! I don't get to do that very often. I can see your grandfathers drift and definitely agree (in 2013 LOL) that any checks or balances on poor legislation would be good. Poor legislation seems to be the norm nowadays unfortunately. However, my idea (although I'm surely not the only one with it) is to move closer to towards the digital town hall with many mini referenda and a ban on Party Politics before and during elections. Coalitians of interest among Independents would form an incoming government over a 2-6 week period. I believe rightly or wrongly that the Integrity and Character of candidates is far more important than the highly generalised policies of political parties. I would go so far as to call political parties evil, although possibly necessary evils.

    Munterville, Christchurch… • Since Sep 2012 • 2 posts Report Reply

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