Hard News: Jonesing
370 Responses
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Stephen Judd, in reply to
I would be delighted to broker this introduction. Ms Russell, I have the honour to present Mr Leslie. Mr Leslie, may I introduce Ms Russell to you. I am sure you will get on famously.
I can think of at least four people I met at in the flesh at Labour events who I initially knew only from the internet. I should organise a mini-conf for People From The Internet for November.
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Henry Barnard, in reply to
Cunliffe gets asked about loyalty heaps because historically he’s had form in that area.
Really? It is ironic that the time that Cunliffe was supposedly `outed' on loyalty - last years conference - it was another Paddy Gower generated storm. We have yet another now: Gower drawing on `news' he was significantly responsible for manufacturing at the time.
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Stephen Judd, in reply to
[edited on 2nd thoughts].
Gower is not well liked in Labour generally, on any side, I would have said.
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Henry Barnard, in reply to
Gower is not well liked in Labour generally, on any side, I would have said.
True. As I said, the MP who really likes him is Collins - a mutual feeling, I wouldn't be surprised.
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Sacha, in reply to
manufacturing
it's going to get nasty
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BenWilson, in reply to
FWIW, I am reasonably convinced that Gower is strongly disliked by the vast majority of the Labour caucus, irrespective of their preferred leader.
Whoever is feeding him his gossip, and I do think there's someone, is really fucking with their party. How is it to their interests for it to become public that there's some secret clique of Cunliffe haters? Is it supposed to put pressure on the rank and file, or the unions somehow? More than likely it will have the opposite effect, so secretive and undemocratic is such a manipulation.
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Sacha, in reply to
I meant does she have a particular party-sanctioned role during the campaign? Thought all the MPs were told to be circumspect, not blurt on Twitter etc.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
for People From The Internet for November.
I know a few people Big event is it? :)
sorry that was soo funny
still giggling -
Sacha, in reply to
great band name
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Keir Leslie, in reply to
We really should -- I think it would be a pretty awesome group to get together.
Henry, I'm not going to rake over the details of last year's conference, but it is worth saying, no matter the precise details, Cunliffe left that conference with a cloud over his head, re: loyalty, and also fucked off a lot of MPs. That happened, and to his credit he's gone off and worked hard on the backbenches and I'm not super hung up on that at the moment. But it is part of the history Cunliffe brings to the table.
It's also hard to reconcile the unity talk with the "let's fuck the ABCers" stuff, and that definitely worries me. My enthusiasm for a bloodbath is very low.
(Who doesn't despise Gower, really?)
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
I should organise a mini-conf for People From The Internet for November.
Your Domain or mine. :-D
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Alex Coleman, in reply to
As I say, I think Michie’s case is all in the game, and just a combination of trying a bit on, being slightly unfortunate in words, and bad luck. But I do think some pro-Cunliffe figures were running homophobic lines, and that does need to be called out – in the same way that if people were running racist lines against Jones, that’s not ok either.
[Also, guys, Cunliffe gets asked about loyalty heaps because historically he’s had form in that area. Robertson doesn’t, and nor does Jones, and so they don’t get asked.]
I think the question that Michie was asked, which was how "conservatives" would react to Robertson's sexuality needs to be kept in mind. It's easy enough to think of a perfect answer a few days later, in a written context like a comment section, but during a live interview I think she deserves the benefit of the doubt as to her motivations.
And there is no disloyalty to the party in wanting the leadership. I've yet to see anything presented where Cunliffe publically has done anything toxic to the party's image. The worst he was accused of was lobbying for the rules changes at conference. The response to this from the ABCs was to go to journos, off the record, with things that did bring the party into a bad light. This is all quite deliberate. I really don't see how there is an equivalence.
It is all in the game, if you like, but how you play the game matters. The ABC group play the game in a toxic way, through the media, in a way that hurts the party. If you have examples of Cunliffe doing this, I'd love to hear about them.
The worst thing about the ABC MO though, is that is doesn't actually work.
Are the people in the ABC caucus more, or less, disloyal than Cunliffe? The answer to that depends on whether or not you think the party should be run by a little group who wield power brutally. Robertson hasn't crossed that group, so he is loyal, as is Hipkins and whoever it is that has been saying damaging things to Gower.
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Keir Leslie, in reply to
No, and that's one reason I think she was clumsy and I wouldn't have handled the issue the way she handled it. But I'm not going to condemn a Labour MP for making pretty valid points about homophobia clumsily, given that there's a lot more egregious sins being committed by Labour MPs -- like not even trying to make those points...
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Alex Coleman, in reply to
no matter the precise details
Actually, no. Matter the precise details very much. :)
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Henry Barnard, in reply to
Whoever is feeding him his gossip, and I do think there’s someone, is really fucking with their party.
+1
Who is in a position to quash this? Cunliffe has already dealt with one form of dog whistle politics. This, the `Don't-vote-for-Cunliffe-because-he-is-divisive' (partly reflected in Keir's reference to `form') is coming from somewhere.
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Keir Leslie, in reply to
Eh look I know a bunch of people in the party who now support Cunliffe, and some of them pretty heavily. Back last November, they all thought Cunliffe was fucking us over. That’s ok — people make mistakes, and there’s got to be a road back. Cunliffe knuckled down and took that road. If he wins I’m not going to hold last November against him, and I’ll be doorknocking for Labour in 2014.
But last November still happened. And Cunliffe has to negotiate that, and he’s doing, and that’s ok. But you can’t expect members and MPs to put that out of their minds.
[Also of course I’m not going into details! If Cunliffe wins I don’t want to have laid out material someone can use to attack him later on. Not playing that game.]
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
See, that wasn’t helpful.That last bit. Only a few more days then Robertson and Cunliffe will help sort the Party out. These guys need to get along. Jones is Jones. He’s there. No doubt.
I emailed Jones and Goff today . As a believer in the Labour Party (with no disbelief in Greens) I want them all there in 2014. We can keep this ball rolling by talking/mail to the MP’s. Analyse them. Ask questions. We can make them think about their behaviour. All of them
Sincerely
Sofie (Goff Land) -
Alex Coleman, in reply to
Yes I do expect MPs to put that out of their mind to the extent that they don't go sabotaging the party via off the record quotes to Gower.
The fact that whatever horrible thing Cunliffe did in November can't be talked about because no one knows, is part of the point. He was doing it in house, not through the media.
The only suggestion I have seen is that he thought he should be leader rather than Shearer. There is nothing wrong with that. Nothing. That really is all in the game. It's an important part of the game.
How is what he was doing more disloyal than those who were talking to Gower about Shearer's leadership months ago saying he had til spring? r those who talked to Garner in the #spull debacle? It's pretty obvious that that was all the same people. The same ones who followed it up with whatever resulted in Shearer stepping down.
Why was none of that 'disloyal'?
Do you see the point I am making?
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
No, and that's one reason I think she was clumsy and I wouldn't have handled the issue the way she handled it. But I'm not going to condemn a Labour MP for making pretty valid points about homophobia clumsily, given that there's a lot more egregious sins being committed by Labour MPs -- like not even trying to make those points...
We really must work on an agreed definition of "clumsy". Clare Curran declared for Grant Robertson this past Sunday. The next day, she remembered to become outraged about something that Jenny Michie said on the 25th of August. "Clumsy" isn't the first word that springs to mind.
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Keir Leslie, in reply to
Heh. Am trying very hard not to be unhelpful. But it's also not helpful to be talking about the terribly awful ABCs who must be purged because of their horrible distortions of reality (I kid, but.) If Cunliffe wins, he needs to work with senior figures in the party like Goff and Mallard and King and with talented newer MPs like Woods and Twyford and Ardern.
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Keir Leslie, in reply to
By the by, it definitely wasn't the ABC lot that were involved in the #spull debacle. No idea if any MP was involved in that to be honest, I think that was just bizarre.
Hah! Giovanni, I agree that clumsy is not the word that springs to mind from that point. From the point of effectively achieving the aim she was after? I'm not sure.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
so I will bombard them with emails. Give them support to get with the program and keep telling them we are many .I’ve met a few Labour MP’s. No problem with any of them cos we are all different. Their trip is not my trip because we are different somehow.. I like Labour . I like both Cunliffe and Robertson.
Ok,….. wine -
giovanni tiso, in reply to
Hah! Giovanni, I agree that clumsy is not the word that springs to mind from that point. From the point of effectively achieving the aim she was after? I'm not sure.
If her target really was homophobia, though, as you have suggested upthread, I think any time before Sunday would have been good too. Just saying.
(And by the way I agree Michie was probably all but a surrogate by then - given that Cunliffe was really just being coy in waiting to announce - and that her comments weren't good.)
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Keir Leslie, in reply to
Yeah, as I say, I’m not super keen on how Curran handled it. I definitely think it was mishandled in some ways.
[I just don't think Michie/Cunliffe have any call to complain --- they got cute and got caught, even if it was a bit of a botch up all round.]
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BenWilson, in reply to
If Cunliffe wins I don’t want to have laid out material someone can use to attack him later on. Not playing that game.
Guards! Seize him!
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