Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Jonesing

Islander

Mon, 16 Sept 2013 16:52:15 +1200

Me too!
Especially if Shane gets a front-rank job-

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 15 Sept 2013 19:56:36 +1200

In the words of Helen Clark, "Job Ready". Good on him. Labour are good to go. I'm beside them 100%

Russell Brown

Sun, 15 Sept 2013 19:52:50 +1200

Grant has friends who have an autistic child, and he has helped numerous constituents in their battles to get disability support in schools and in the community, so I think he knows the issues pretty well (as should any good constituency MP as disability issues and problems are widespread).

This…

Rob Stowell

Sun, 15 Sept 2013 19:03:39 +1200

Me too. In a quiet way :)
There can't be any utu. Shane and Grant must be at least on the front bench.
But ... I hope, whoever it is, the dope who's been leaking acid to Gower et al has the grace to bow out before the next election.…

Deborah

Sun, 15 Sept 2013 17:51:16 +1200

Me too.

BenWilson

Sun, 15 Sept 2013 16:09:36 +1200

Cunliffe it is. I'm quite pleased about this.

Hilary Stace

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 21:49:22 +1200

Hebe

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 21:30:23 +1200

Also adding: Cunlife is a good choice too! ABJ though.

Hebe

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 20:04:12 +1200

One of the things Robertson is very good at is a encyclopedic grasp of policy across government

A key skill for a would-be PM and effective leader of the largest opposition party. From what I have heard and seen, I think Robertson would be the best choice. But I don't…

Keir Leslie

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 18:19:24 +1200

I very much doubt that Robertson has advisers as far as disability issues go. Don't think resourcing is that good, to be honest.

One of the things Robertson is very good at is a encyclopedic grasp of policy across government --- at the Christchurch meeting, he was on top of…

Sacha

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 17:57:19 +1200

finally recognizing that Asperger's can be a disability

(ah, you mean the service eligibility criteria)

Sacha

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 17:56:16 +1200

I like Robertson's answer to that one

Same. It shows he undestands the field (or has advisors who do).

Cunliffe is clear he'd support such a ministry.

Nope – he's talking about a *Minister*, which we've had for some time.

BenWilson

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 15:28:31 +1200

I like Robertson's answer to that one. The idea of actually finally recognizing that Asperger's can be a disability is hugely important.

ETA: Although Cunliffe is clear he'd support such a ministry. Hmmm. OK, I like both answers. Can we have both of them?

giovanni tiso

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 14:04:04 +1200

The issues won't be going away.

That's very true. I was getting greedy. Also, Jones might have developed an aneurysm had he tried to answer the full question.

Hilary Stace

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 13:43:56 +1200

The issues won't be going away. I'm pleased they chose something disability-related for the Q and A forum, and the call for a Disability Ministry goes back several decades.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 13:34:07 +1200

Damn. I so wish the whole thing had been submitted.

Hilary Stace

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 12:23:38 +1200

To be fair, the development of the full question was a collective effort (merely submitted by me). The short snappy part of the question chosen for the candidates to answer is, however, a good revealer of attitudes and understanding.

If anyone is interested here is the full question.

Under your…

nzlemming

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 12:14:41 +1200

Spoiler: Shane Jones’ response is dreadful.

FFFFUUUUUUUUU......

Russell Brown

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 11:49:25 +1200

Over at Red Alert, there’s a set of responses from the three leadership candidates to our Hilary’s excellent question on disability issues.

Spoiler: Shane Jones' response is dreadful.

Deborah

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 11:30:13 +1200

Over at Red Alert, there's a set of responses from the three leadership candidates to our Hilary's excellent question on disability issues.

Disability Issues: Would you create a Ministry for Disability? Labour Leadership Q&A #7

Kyle Matthews

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 11:16:57 +1200

And really, pretty hilarious to accuse Matthews of membership of the Servos for “legal” reasons when you are making an argument in favour of a man who joined a union when a Minister…

Also Rebecca Matthews (no relation, but she's a friend) is a member of SWFU because that's the…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 09:55:26 +1200

Something in the water?
Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with these people?
Interesting alumni of the Otago Uni Debating Club* last century?
I (Michael Laws) went to Otago University with the public front-runner, David Cunliffe.
We were colleagues in the exceedingly egocentric debating club – the same vintage that…

Russell Brown

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 09:24:51 +1200

Trotter brings the disgusting. Wanker.

Surely you had to laugh at this bit:

In many respects Cunliffe’s predicament is akin to that of progressive Americans living in the USA during the McCarthyite “Red Scare”.

Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with these people?

Henry Barnard

Thu, 12 Sept 2013 07:21:22 +1200

Aren’t we already? – many of us use STV to elect our councils

I meant the discrepancies between the balances in favour of one candidate or other in the various divisions of the electoral college. There is much talk about how dreadful it would be if the fall of the…

Steve Parks

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 23:51:45 +1200

Trotter brings the disgusting. Wanker.

I pretty much agree with the Rebecca Matthews FB comment Trotter quoted so disapprovingly. I note she added in the comments of the Trotter article: __"I am not against discussing homophobia, that’s just silly – I am saying that people who say its a reason…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 22:19:06 +1200

We will have to get used to this sort of thing:

Aren't we already? – many of us use STV to elect our councils – I expect a ballot, with more than 30 names on it for me to rank, to arrive in my mailbox any day now ....

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 22:10:53 +1200

Colonel Trotter seems to be putting words into Grant Robertson’s mouth (and David Cunliffe’s, for that matter).

Colonel Trotter completely lost the plot this week.

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 22:09:42 +1200

I’d read his prompt action in standing Michie down as an olive branch, wouldn’t you?

I thought that.

nzlemming

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 22:00:57 +1200

In fact, veteran unionist Ken Douglas was on record saying that a sizeable number of them “weren’t out in the streets, but on the grandstands of Rugby Park”.

Cheering on the bashing, in fact. Because rugby.

Kumara Republic

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 21:36:38 +1200

Also, again with the hyper-personal attacks on women and gays who have the temerity to challenge a privileged world of workerism.

Colonel Trotter seems to be putting words into Grant Robertson's mouth (and David Cunliffe's, for that matter).

I've posted before about this, but one of the major reasons why…

Hebe

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 21:11:51 +1200

Gower who has no form on inside gossip in the Bubble My sense too; a prime target for jack-ups.

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 20:48:10 +1200

maybe clumsy is being so obvious about it? :)

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 20:47:23 +1200

I'd read his prompt action in standing Michie down as an olive branch, wouldn't you?

Henry Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 20:15:49 +1200

We will have to get used to this sort of thing:

Ed Miliband won the election, the result of which was announced on 25 September 2010, after second, third and fourth preferences votes were counted, with the support of 50.654% of the electoral college, defeating his brother by 1.3%. In…

Henry Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 20:06:37 +1200

Guards! Seize him!

Honestly, sir, we didn't hear anything: it was too high pitched.

nzlemming

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:57:55 +1200

True. As I said, the MP who really likes him is Collins – a mutual feeling, I wouldn’t be surprised.

I think he more fits the role of Useful idiot as far as the Nats are concerned.

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:57:42 +1200

Can someone please tell him.

nzlemming

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:53:37 +1200

Would Gower really take an off the record quote from the DC camp, and spin it as Cunliffe’s opponent’s hating his guts? That’s a pretty big assumption to make, no?

Disagree. This would be business as usual for Gower who has no form on inside gossip in the Bubble, but…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:48:50 +1200

Trotter brings the disgusting. Wanker.

Also, again with the hyper-personal attacks on women and gays who have the temerity to challenge a privileged world of workerism.

And really, pretty hilarious to accuse Matthews of membership of the Servos for "legal" reasons when you are making an argument in favour of…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:45:37 +1200

Must be a wierd environment out there in Beehiveland. Makes Parliament look like "Days Of Our Lives". I refuse to believe that.

Deborah

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:34:08 +1200

I have already had my wine :)

"had" ? !!!!

What is this past tense? I know it not.

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:26:52 +1200

Gower is not well liked in Labour generally, on any side, I would have said.

Well, I know it's not going to be popular (kinda) defending Gower hereabouts but if he's as prone to just making shit up as some folks would have me believe it should be remarkably easy…

Henry Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:25:19 +1200

It’s also hard to reconcile the unity talk with the “let’s fuck the ABCers” stuff, and that definitely worries me. My enthusiasm for a bloodbath is very low.

So is mine. As for the ABCers, whoever they are, they are, as always, just fucking themselves. Like Deborah, I will get…

BenWilson

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:23:24 +1200

Doesn’t say it’s an MP, or even from the Labour Party

Indeed, it might not even be of this earth.

Kyle Matthews

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:22:28 +1200

This is the sort of crap that the ABCs have been doing.

The source just says sources. Doesn't say it's an MP, or even from the Labour Party, though presumably it is. Given the fanaticism that Gower and Garner have been been pursuing anything that smells like a story to…

BenWilson

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:16:25 +1200

If Cunliffe wins I don’t want to have laid out material someone can use to attack him later on. Not playing that game.

Guards! Seize him!

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:15:49 +1200

Yeah, as I say, I’m not super keen on how Curran handled it. I definitely think it was mishandled in some ways.

[I just don't think Michie/Cunliffe have any call to complain --- they got cute and got caught, even if it was a bit of a botch up all…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:12:09 +1200

Hah! Giovanni, I agree that clumsy is not the word that springs to mind from that point. From the point of effectively achieving the aim she was after? I'm not sure.

If her target really was homophobia, though, as you have suggested upthread, I think any time before Sunday would…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:10:33 +1200

so I will bombard them with emails. Give them support to get with the program and keep telling them we are many .I’ve met a few Labour MP’s. No problem with any of them cos we are all different. Their trip is not my trip because we are different somehow..…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:08:32 +1200

By the by, it definitely wasn't the ABC lot that were involved in the #spull debacle. No idea if any MP was involved in that to be honest, I think that was just bizarre.

Hah! Giovanni, I agree that clumsy is not the word that springs to mind from that…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 19:00:08 +1200

Heh. Am trying very hard not to be unhelpful. But it's also not helpful to be talking about the terribly awful ABCs who must be purged because of their horrible distortions of reality (I kid, but.) If Cunliffe wins, he needs to work with senior figures in the party like…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:58:48 +1200

No, and that's one reason I think she was clumsy and I wouldn't have handled the issue the way she handled it. But I'm not going to condemn a Labour MP for making pretty valid points about homophobia clumsily, given that there's a lot more egregious sins being committed by…

Alex Coleman

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:58:00 +1200

Yes I do expect MPs to put that out of their mind to the extent that they don't go sabotaging the party via off the record quotes to Gower.

The fact that whatever horrible thing Cunliffe did in November can't be talked about because no one knows, is part of…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:55:00 +1200

See, that wasn’t helpful.That last bit. Only a few more days then Robertson and Cunliffe will help sort the Party out. These guys need to get along. Jones is Jones. He’s there. No doubt.
I emailed Jones and Goff today . As a believer in the Labour Party (with no…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:43:35 +1200

Eh look I know a bunch of people in the party who now support Cunliffe, and some of them pretty heavily. Back last November, they all thought Cunliffe was fucking us over. That’s ok — people make mistakes, and there’s got to be a road back. Cunliffe knuckled down and…

Henry Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:42:42 +1200

Whoever is feeding him his gossip, and I do think there’s someone, is really fucking with their party.

Who is in a position to quash this? Cunliffe has already dealt with one form of dog whistle politics. This, the `Don't-vote-for-Cunliffe-because-he-is-divisive' (partly reflected in Keir's reference to `form') is coming…

Alex Coleman

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:42:10 +1200

no matter the precise details

Actually, no. Matter the precise details very much. :)

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:40:00 +1200

Alex Coleman

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:39:55 +1200

As I say, I think Michie’s case is all in the game, and just a combination of trying a bit on, being slightly unfortunate in words, and bad luck. But I do think some pro-Cunliffe figures were running homophobic lines, and that does need to be called out – in…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:39:09 +1200

I should organise a mini-conf for People From The Internet for November.

Your Domain or mine. :-D

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:37:01 +1200

We really should — I think it would be a pretty awesome group to get together.

Henry, I'm not going to rake over the details of last year's conference, but it is worth saying, no matter the precise details, Cunliffe left that conference with a cloud over his head, re:…

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:36:57 +1200

great band name

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:36:29 +1200

for People From The Internet for November.

I know a few people Big event is it? :)
sorry that was soo funny

still giggling

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:35:41 +1200

I meant does she have a particular party-sanctioned role during the campaign? Thought all the MPs were told to be circumspect, not blurt on Twitter etc.

BenWilson

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:34:23 +1200

FWIW, I am reasonably convinced that Gower is strongly disliked by the vast majority of the Labour caucus, irrespective of their preferred leader.

Whoever is feeding him his gossip, and I do think there's someone, is really fucking with their party. How is it to their interests for it to…

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:33:45 +1200

manufacturing

it's going to get nasty

Henry Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:32:51 +1200

Gower is not well liked in Labour generally, on any side, I would have said.

True. As I said, the MP who really likes him is Collins – a mutual feeling, I wouldn't be surprised.

Stephen Judd

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:29:51 +1200

[edited on 2nd thoughts].

Gower is not well liked in Labour generally, on any side, I would have said.

Henry Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:27:06 +1200

Cunliffe gets asked about loyalty heaps because historically he’s had form in that area.

Really? It is ironic that the time that Cunliffe was supposedly `outed' on loyalty – last years conference – it was another Paddy Gower generated storm. We have yet another now: Gower drawing on `news' he…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:26:52 +1200

I would be delighted to broker this introduction. Ms Russell, I have the honour to present Mr Leslie. Mr Leslie, may I introduce Ms Russell to you. I am sure you will get on famously.

I can think of at least four people I met at in the flesh at…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:26:36 +1200

Oh yes, we should definitely organise a online-time-wasting members meet-up sometime that weekend. (Ideally reasonably early on, before everyone becomes exhausted, angry and frustrated.)

Also Sacha are you kidding? “How is it a Labour MPs job to call out bigotry?” I dunno, I kinda reckon it’s a pretty core KPI…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:24:50 +1200

Can we please get rid of Nactional? ..... Thanks

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:23:27 +1200

if Curran thought

it's her job how?

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:21:27 +1200

And yes, it will be very academic by then, and very much a matter of working to support whoever is the leader.

Yay!

Deborah

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:17:38 +1200

I meant in general, not about the leadership per se. And yes, it will be very academic by then, and very much a matter of working to support whoever is the leader.

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:15:13 +1200

I hope that by the time the issue will be very academic.

Deborah

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:12:35 +1200

Are you going to be at the conference in November, Keir? If so, it would be good to talk. Maybe over a glass of chardonnay, seeing as we're socialists.

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:10:34 +1200

I tripped and fell on the Send button, your honour

:) Bart moment

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:09:06 +1200

I think it’s a bit off to dismiss a legitimate concern that people in the party were running lines that looked a lot like a homophobic dog whistle as simply “trying to cause trouble”. Apart from anything else, if Curran thought that anti-Roberston figures were dog whistling, they deserve to…

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:07:08 +1200

have got form for this sort of dirty pool

verily

Henry Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:07:01 +1200

There is at least 1 caucus member who wanted Paddy to report that Cunliffe will have a caucus in which 15 members hate his guts, but lacks the courage to be open about it, or accept the party process.

Only 1? I went along to a husting and, like many,…

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:06:30 +1200

I think Curran may have been clumsy

I tripped and fell on the Send button, your honour

Alex Coleman

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:06:01 +1200

Notice how Gower has conflated MPs who will give Grant their 1st preference with those who “hate his guts”.

See I'm not so sure. You can say whatever you like about the pseudonymous activists at the Standard, but the ABC in caucus people have got form for this sort of…

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:03:02 +1200

I think we all know who I'm talking about

don't you start :)

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:02:55 +1200

And I think Curran may have been clumsy,

I sent her an email. Hope she replies next week. This week is theirs for the new Leader.

Deborah

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:01:38 +1200

close enough to being a surrogate by that point I think.

Well... it's arguable, either way. I know that in conversation, DC has been very much opposed to raising any issue whatsoever to do with candidate's private lives.

I do think that Curran was trying to cause trouble,, given that…

Sacha

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 18:00:00 +1200

that evening's conflict report

... 'it's going to get nasty' ...

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:46:46 +1200

Eh, close enough to being a surrogate by that point I think. And "Mike Williams did it too" is not a huge endorsement, in many ways...

I'm not saying what she did was a hugely immoral act to be punished, and I definitely agree if it hadn't been brought up…

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:44:41 +1200

Notice how Gower has conflated MPs who will give Grant their 1st preference with those who “hate his guts”.

Yes. It gets wearying.

Deborah

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:44:04 +1200

There are Labour MPs who deserve a kick in the pants who support each one of the candidates. And there’ll be a time and place for that, too, no doubt …

And former MPs. I watched a couple of them after one of the hustings meetings, actively lobbying against one…

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:44:02 +1200

I do believe however, that all the media bullshit and the tittle tatlle and tourtured tweets are just playing to the front bench of our fourth form humoured Government and their giggling gonad rack of a Prime Minister. A little more patience and less panic would be in order, I…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:26:04 +1200

Look at the Standard and the Daily Blog and the pretty much continuous campaign of vilification against MPs who don’t back Cunliffe. Hilary Stace got screamed at there for suggesting Ruth Dyson was a pretty decent Minister.
Fair enough. And yuck. I haven't spent much eyeball at Teh Std or…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:15:55 +1200

… my) experience of actually being, y’know, women, and putting up with the ‘ladies be crazy’ trope for most of our lives, is at least as pertinent and relevant as your experience of interacting with women. I don’t think there are any ‘lived experience’ trump cards available here.
+1
Apart…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:14:09 +1200

Notice how Gower has conflated MPs who will give Grant their 1st preference with those who "hate his guts".

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:09:28 +1200

I have to say, while I think Curran was pretty clumsy, I don’t much sympathy for Michie. If she’d been asked “is Jones’ race an issue” and replied “Well, not for me, but for some people, and you’d have to be naive etc” everyone would agree that was hugely improper.…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:04:27 +1200

What they could do is have a whole round of byelections where all the electorate MPs who can't stand Cunliffe resign en masse to be replaced by smart new positive candidates. It'd be a bit of a propaganda win if it was done right.

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 17:01:37 +1200

Steve, I need you to rethink the way you're coming into these discussion. Because single time lately you're generating a shitfight.

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:59:21 +1200

So here’s Paddy again:

Sources say Labour’s Anyone But Cunliffe club – ABC – declared/locked in at 15 MPs. 15/34 MPs who can’t stand him, absolutely hate his guts.

Garner tweeted this earlier:

Text from DC camp to me: 'GR's team are counting their chickens. Numbers are GR15; DC12; SJ2;…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:57:36 +1200

Silly old troll.

Wow. Ageist and insulting.
You go girl.
:)

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:56:46 +1200

This is the sort of crap that the ABCs have been doing. It’s fucking toxic. There is at least 1 caucus member who wanted Paddy to report that Cunliffe will have a caucus in which 15 members hate his guts, but lacks the courage to be open about it, or…

BenWilson

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:53:47 +1200

He could make or break it. It's exciting, and that's something new for the Labour Party. I'd rather they took some risks. It would mean a decent chance of holding National to only 2 terms, which is historically a bloody good effort. Odds are, though, that National will get in…

Alex Coleman

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:52:53 +1200

So here's Paddy again:

Sources say Labour's Anyone But Cunliffe club – ABC – declared/locked in at 15 MPs. 15/34 MPs who can't stand him, absolutely hate his guts.

https://twitter.com/patrickgowernz/status/377644637067816961

No context whatsoever. Sources? Assume it's Labour but not stated.

Not told if the 'sources' gave the names of these…

Hebe

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:33:07 +1200

If he’s polarizing, it’s either a good thing, or a bad thing. :-)Exactly; I don't know which one Cunliffe is. I'll leave that up to the party.

Hebe

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:29:10 +1200

Don't be a dick" is a house rule around here, and has been used routinely by both men and women to ask people not to be sexist, or ageist, or ablist, or racist, or to in any way marginalise other people here.+1

Deborah

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:23:22 +1200

I've typed and deleted several comments in response to Steve's remarks above. In no particular order...

1. "Girls" is dismissive and infantalising. At best your use of it is careless, but it could be construed as being deliberately insulting.

2. I agree with Danielle. "Ladies be crazy" is a horrid,…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 16:14:19 +1200

Does that make it ok for me to say “Don’t be a cunt?”

Well, if I was being one it might.

But I remember now. The appropriate response is:

Oh, was that a joke? I don’t get it. Can you please explain it for me?

Hebe

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 15:57:06 +1200

Does that make it ok for me to say “Don’t be a cunt?”
No IT DOESN"T.
So Apology?.
Doubt it.

Silly old troll.

Steve Barnes

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 14:51:49 +1200

So glad you girls know more about my life expedience than I do, well, that was expected.
Does that make it ok for me to say “Don’t be a cunt?”
No IT DOESN"T.
So Apology?.
Doubt it.

Danielle

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 14:43:47 +1200

Don’t be a dick.

+1. Do believe me, Steve, when I say that the "ladies be crazy, amirite" schtick does not fly with me at any time of the day OR month.

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 14:38:17 +1200

That depends more on the time of day rather than time of the month in my experience.I'm waiting for some more pithy response to occur to me, but for the moment all I can come up with is:

Don't be a dick.

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 14:31:41 +1200

Audrey Young at Herald if anyone is interested.

Steve Barnes

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 14:30:31 +1200

he’s shown that he’s got no idea of what women might find offensive, or why.

That depends more on the time of day rather than time of the month in my experience.

Oops...

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 14:10:16 +1200

Well, I still think that "she was having monthly sick problems" is at least as valid an interpretation of "the moon in Dunedin was in the wrong phase" as "she was having a passing attack of lunacy". If that's not what Jones meant, then once again he's shown that he's…

BenWilson

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 14:00:41 +1200

a thinly veiled suggestion that, in his opinion, Curran was being a loony and may prefer to belong somewhere else.

Or perhaps a werewolf, only really dangerous some of the time.

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 14:00:32 +1200

I have to say, while I think Curran was pretty clumsy, I don't much sympathy for Michie. If she'd been asked "is Jones' race an issue" and replied "Well, not for me, but for some people, and you'd have to be naive etc" everyone would agree that was hugely improper.…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 13:58:17 +1200

Yeah but no but.;)

BenWilson

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 13:50:43 +1200

Could be a good thing, could be a bad thing.

If he’s polarizing, it’s either a good thing, or a bad thing. :-)

Steve Barnes

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 13:41:05 +1200

did Jones just dismiss Curran’s tweet on the grounds that “it must be that time of the month”?

I don't think so, what he said was "Either the moon in Dunedin was in the wrong phase or she's casting around for a new job," , a thinly veiled…

Hilary Stace

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:52:08 +1200

I wrote this after the Wellington meeting and haven't changed my opinion

the roadshow and leadership election seem to be incredibly well organised, and the venues packed – as well as staying generally good humoured. Quite an achievement and one which augurs well for the left.

Part of me doesn't…

Emma Hart

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:45:08 +1200

I actually left with a better impression of him than before. Now I get where the “he can connect” stuff comes from, because he does have the gift of the gab and a great dramatic delivery.

This was my impression too, watching the live feed. I was just thinking, "Yeah,…

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:28:57 +1200

Did I get this wrong, did Jones just dismiss Curran’s tweet on the grounds that “it must be that time of the month”? way to go wanna-be PM alienating half your potential voters

I thought Curran's behaviour was unhelpful (and not for the first time). But ... jesus.

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:28:22 +1200

It's kinda sad. I'm not against robust debate, but I'd prefer it come with more facts and less weird conspiracy theory.

Also, here's a pretty good round-up of reactions to the speeches in Christchurch, via The Press.

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:27:53 +1200

That’s positive to read. I’d like all you Labourites to present me with a credible and organised alternative to National. That’s all.

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:19:51 +1200

Labour's tried to move away from having one "earthquake spokesperson" to having spokespeople covering aspects of eq issues — so, for instance, Megan Woods is Chch transport, covering bits of eq recovery. Also, remember, almost certainly the quake-related portfolios will get reshuffled following the East by-election.

Stephen Judd

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:18:07 +1200

The horses are being led to water.

Hebe

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:16:22 +1200

For something that purported to be a contest, it seemed oddly collaborative.

That's positive to read. I'd like all you Labourites to present me with a credible and organised alternative to National. That's all.

Joe Wylie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:11:13 +1200

Which can explain why Cunliffe thinks Dyson would be good for earthquake recovery . Everyone down there is vulnerable whether they know it or not. I think she would do well too.
Of course she's currently in that role, along with Clayton Cosgrove, since Lianne Dalziel's departure forced a reshuffle.…

Hebe

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 10:06:52 +1200

why Cunliffe thinks Dyson would be good for earthquake recovery

Given Cunlffe doesn't seem to know much about about Christchurch and the earthquake recovery, I would be taking advice on that if I were him.

All the Chch Labour MPs have done outstanding work on that front: Dyson, Dalziel, Cosgrove,…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:45:56 +1200

It seems bizarre to me that Ruth Dyson’s record as Minister for Disability Issues needs to be defended. I lived through that era and I observed Ruth’s hard work and dedication to the sector.

Which can explain why Cunliffe thinks Dyson would be good for earthquake recovery . Everyone down…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:44:53 +1200

If James wrote a DB post about why he favoured Grant* the local commentariat would be calling him a quisling in no time flat.

*hypothetically.

Stephen Judd

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:42:29 +1200

I suggest keeping away from The Standard at the moment

It's an echo chamber. Rumours are recycled into solid fact, some MPs are the Antichrist or Satan, every setback for Cunliffe is a conspiracy, the people you like are selfless and the ones you don't are troughers. On the other…

Joe Wylie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:42:19 +1200

Look at the Standard and the Daily Blog and the pretty much continuous campaign of vilification against MPs who don’t back Cunliffe. Hilary Stace got screamed at there for suggesting Ruth Dyson was a pretty decent Minister. It’s really not where I want my party to go.
As it happens,…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:38:07 +1200

Thanks.

Hilary Stace

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:36:43 +1200

It seems bizarre to me that Ruth Dyson's record as Minister for Disability Issues needs to be defended. I lived through that era and I observed Ruth's hard work and dedication to the sector. Just some examples (for historic accountability purposes), NZ Disability Strategy ensures government policy is underpinned for…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:35:12 +1200

Shane last night clearly was not a contender. "The taniwha from the North", as he called himself more than once, had all the right phrases but couldn't assemble them into a coherent stream of sentences. It was like listening to a pretty good best man's speech at a boozy wedding…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:35:04 +1200

Hebe, we know what most people on PAS think of Jones and for why. You’d be better telling him what you think. Maybe he could learn something. It does feel like good guy bad guy with Robertson and Jones. It’s now really obvious that Curran doesn’t like Cunliffe. What good…

Hebe

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 09:20:44 +1200

My view of Shane Jones — as a non-Labour member who party-votes Green but often votes for Labour electorate MPs — is non-negotiable. He's a pig: either a calculating politician who has run the numbers and found an obnoxious centre in which to pitch his tent, or simply a pig.…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 08:59:45 +1200

Yes. There’s a reason for the big gender split in Jones’ support.

Still, what Curran did was not helpful at all and what Jones does isn't either. One of the reasons I don't tweet, always feels like gossip. Plus, I think the Cunliffe team must be trying real hard this…

Deborah

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 08:28:11 +1200

Yes. There's a reason for the big gender split in Jones' support.

Paul Campbell

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 08:07:38 +1200

Did I get this wrong, did Jones just dismiss Curran's tweet on the grounds that "it must be that time of the month"? way to go wanna-be PM alienating half your potential voters

BenWilson

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 01:21:31 +1200

But that seems to be what’s getting Bradbury off, and he’s not the only one. Look at the Standard and the Daily Blog

There's truth in that. But they have no power. Soon, they'll probably finally have Cunliffe and the rivers will not flow with milk and honey. Hopefully the…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 11 Sept 2013 00:04:54 +1200

Of course I'll support Cunliffe if he's elected --- he'll have a mandate to lead the party to 2014 and if he does well, beyond. I certainly don't think Cunliffe's running in order to implement a purge. And I don't think he's pushing it, either.

But that seems to be…

Rob Stowell

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 23:46:04 +1200

if Cunliffe’s going to reward his mates he has to demote people — but it’s really unattractive.
This is sad.
If Cunliffe is elected, would you support his leadership? If he loses, would you support him as deputy?
Do you believe Cunliffe, if elected, would be so stupid as to…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 22:48:06 +1200

(Aside from that:)

Just got back from the Christchurch meeting. Robertson owned the room, detailed grasp of policy, and the announcement re: rent stabilisation was very well received. Cunliffe did well but didn't have a grip on earthquake policy, clearly rattled by Robertson's bold move, and Jones, well, it's a…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 22:36:24 +1200

I think it's pretty revealing that one of the main things lots of Cunliffe people seem to see in Cunliffe is a chance to fuck over everyone in the party that's not on their side. Some of this is clearly structural --- i.e if Cunliffe's going to reward his mates…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 21:32:15 +1200

but manage to persuade us that they do.

Why is that? Are wes that gullible or do we just gossip? If this round of establishing a new Labour leader has the ramifications of sorting out the wheat from the chaff, how abouts we say so be it. If you dont…

Geoff Lealand

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 21:17:48 +1200

It always strikes me that Garner, Espiner et al don't really know any more than yer average Joe/Josephine Bloggs but manage to persuade us that they do.

Alex Coleman

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 20:12:18 +1200

Not sure who is is more worried; MPs that end up having backed the wrong horse, or the journos who cultivated relationships with them.

nzlemming

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 19:57:43 +1200

Gower has just sent a couple of tweets:

Cos Gower is sooo reliable #spull

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 19:50:02 +1200

Gower has just sent a couple of tweets:

David Cunliffe says Ruth Dyson would be good earthquake recovery minister. Nervous days ahead for Cosgrove. Life under Cunliffe gonna hurt.

And:

Cosgrove must stop Cunliffe or Cosgrove is going to get owned. Simple. No unity on this one.

Alex Coleman

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 19:20:49 +1200

I do hope there is a significant degree of hyperbole in all this. Clearly, Robertson hasn’t got much of a grip on his supporters in caucus.

Or maybe he has? Who knows? Garner might, but he’s not saying because the all important thing is to ‘protect his sources’, which I…

BenWilson

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 17:48:18 +1200

He could be being deliberately vague to stir up a story, and "a number of MPs" is anywhere from zero to all of them. I'm sure there's some people who hate Cunliffe, that was evident last time around. But the bitter hatred might be restricted to actually quite a small…

Henry Barnard

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 17:13:30 +1200

This, from Duncan Garner, is sad:

Robertson’s people won’t give up; they seriously dislike Cunliffe, they really do.They really really do.

I have spoken to a number of Labour MPs in recent days who openly despise Cunliffe. The hatred and bile towards him has not subsided. It actually seems to…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 11:52:14 +1200

Soo, has anyone submitted questions for the online public meeting? Starts today. I figure there must be heaps of queries to SJ from y'all. Good chance to grill him.

Oh I see, must be an eligible voter. My bad...

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 11:40:50 +1200

Labour was also right behind, got teams out doorknocking for,

Got me to sign it :)

Stephen R

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 08:16:17 +1200

The Herald tells me on its website Prime Minister John Key is tipping David Cunliffe to win the Labour leadership.

I was thinking "Why does the Herald think JohnKey is any better informed about who will be leader than anyone else outside the Labour party? What sources of information might…

Henry Barnard

Tue, 10 Sept 2013 03:14:20 +1200

Haven’t you ever taken a job and woken up one morning to say “This crap is not what I signed on for!”?

Yes, I have. And I realised I wasn't any good at it nor was I doing anybody any good by trying.... but it didn't take me two years,…

nzlemming

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 23:13:42 +1200

It wasn’t only him who chose him. I think they did it too damned fast – it was straight after an election, it would hardly have mattered if they’d taken their sweet time about it.

This. Cunliffe wanted it, a significant enough group didn't want Cunliffe. They asked Shearer as…

Sacha

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 23:09:01 +1200

Whose time was he wasting? Not just his own. Did he feel entitled to throw it away?

This

BenWilson

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 22:41:35 +1200

Surely even two years would have been enough for him to witness the bear pit at first hand and to work out whether he was prepared to do the kind of work required in it.

It wasn't only him who chose him. I think they did it too damned fast…

Rob Stowell

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 21:34:27 +1200

I found that interview shocking. Saying something is 'beneath you' is NZ political death- especially on the left. We don't like people who think like that.
Makes me cross. Whose time was he wasting? Not just his own. Did he feel entitled to throw it away? What a disaster!

Henry Barnard

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 20:20:58 +1200

Perhaps...but that was not my impression based on the tone of some of his remarks.

I still don't understand why he put himself forward for the leadership in 2011 given what he said in yesterdays interview. Surely even two years would have been enough for him to witness the bear…

nzlemming

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 20:03:04 +1200

Does Shearer really believe that those who do the work in the `arena’ don’t also want to be able to make a change to New Zealand just as much as he does?

Perhaps his disdain is for the arena, not the people.

Kumara Republic

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 17:59:02 +1200

particularly Wellington Central, are far from safe. Not long since it was held by National (Pauline Gardner) and Act (Richard Prebble). The latter was defeated by Marian Hobbs with some superb organisation and hard work.

Additionally, it was amusing to hear Prebble kick up a stink about boundary changes in 1999…

Henry Barnard

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 17:40:25 +1200

Not sure about this. The person who undermined Shearer was Shearer himself.

I found the Q&A interview with him yesterday very revealing. I don't have a transcript but I picked up on this:

The thing I found most difficult was the pettiness of politics and being in opposition. A lot of…

Hilary Stace

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 15:39:36 +1200

Most of the Wellington seats, particularly Wellington Central, are far from safe. Not long since it was held by National (Pauline Gardner) and Act (Richard Prebble). The latter was defeated by Marian Hobbs with some superb organisation and hard work. Grant has followed the same trend. In many ways it…

BenWilson

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 15:38:03 +1200

Heh, I didn't say it's a good reason.

Keir Leslie

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 15:15:27 +1200

Wellington Central & Rimutaka are only safe because of good electorate organisation and hard work by the MPs.

[Which is to say, there's some good things about Wellington that aren't just being lucky as to seats.]

BenWilson

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 14:26:02 +1200

Not sure why as most of Wellington electorates (apart from Ohariu) are Labour seats.

That probably is why. If the support is to grow then it needs to be in areas that are not already reasonably safe.

Sacha

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 14:12:02 +1200

..and Grey Power and the tertiary students' associations. The coalition was heartening.

Stephen Judd

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 13:44:39 +1200

The asset sales referendum is a great example.

Erm, the one that Labour was also right behind, got teams out doorknocking for, with the Greens, as a multiparty initiative along with the trade unions?

nzlemming

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 13:41:25 +1200

Our lack of hard evidence to link to about Mallard and others undermining their caucus over the past few years is a natural conclusion of increasing ‘access journalism’.

Cheers, and fair point.

Sacha

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 13:30:20 +1200

with all things Wellington seen as particularly negative

all things caucus, perhaps

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 13:27:57 +1200

One thing the Greens have been doing very well and Labour have been largely failing at is to grab the agenda from the lobby journos.

The asset sales referendum is a great example. It got the message across (to at least 400k voters) during the signature collection process, it'll do…

Hilary Stace

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 13:24:05 +1200

I've probably mentioned it before but I think there is a strong Auckland versus the rest of NZ thing going on in this leadership contest, with all things Wellington seen as particularly negative. Not sure why as most of Wellington electorates (apart from Ohariu) are Labour seats.

Raymond A Francis

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 11:39:50 +1200

>If Grant Robertson wins the leadership, David Cunliffe will continue to undermine him, just as he did with David Shearer, or
If David Cunliffe wins the leadership, Grant Robertson will continue to undermine him, just as he did with David Shearer, or
If Shane Jones wins the leadership, BOTH Grant…

Sacha

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 11:33:52 +1200

You're right and I apologise. Reckon Mallard makes a good Minister but poor opposition member. Closest equivalent is probably Murray McCully, on reflection.

However I fell into the trap of regurgitating speculation. Our lack of hard evidence to link to about Mallard and others undermining their caucus over the past…

Henry Barnard

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 11:03:26 +1200

I thought that they all did pretty well. However, I take the point: pushing oneself forward as the candidate of `unity' would seem to imply that, if either of the other two are selected, then the caucus would be disunited. I am sure that this was not intended but it…

Carol Stewart

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 09:10:51 +1200

It was interesting to hear the three contenders on Morning Report this morning (around 8:20 am). I thought Robertson played it rather badly – he talked about the need for unity, but then used the occasion to strongly push himself as leader and make it about himself, which didn't exactly…

nzlemming

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 00:36:25 +1200

I'm not saying he never fucked up. But he always owned it. Maybe you've heard nothing because he's learned from incidents like that not to comment where his knowledge does not extend (there are other opposition MPs actually from the Garden City). And I have heard him in the House…

Joe Wylie

Mon, 09 Sept 2013 00:14:06 +1200

Anytime someone else had seriously stuffed up, Trevor would suddenly say or do something outrageous to divert the fickle news cycle.
I guess whatever Mallard was creating a diversion from back here has been lost in the mists of time. Personally I'd feel a whole lot better about Trev if there'd…

nzlemming

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 23:23:07 +1200

Involved in what passed for strategy at least until the last election, leading ABC club member, likely source of many a leak, seems more concerned about his own interests than his party or NZ. Machiavellian bitch, in short.

I call bullshit on that. Mallard is truly a team player who…

Henry Barnard

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 22:29:24 +1200

Please, not that debunked chestnut again

You mean debunked like this.

Sacha

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 22:09:26 +1200

as well as he could

verily

Sacha

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 22:07:55 +1200

I think it’s disgraceful to call him a “bitch”

and that makes you a saviour of the left sir

Keir Leslie

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 21:16:31 +1200

Yay! Which other politicians do we get to call bitches now?

[No, actually, seriously, I’m not just going to joke. Look, let alone the fact Mallard’s been a staunch MP for twenty years, and worked for Labour Governments as well as he could. Look at his record on conscience votes.…

Sacha

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 19:57:39 +1200

Sacha

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 19:55:00 +1200

and the sample really skewed by the fact that they only contacted people with landlines

Please, not that debunked chestnut again.

Henry Barnard

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 15:19:17 +1200

David Cunliffe was the clear favourite in a poll asking which of the Labour leadership candidates was most likely to win next year’s election over John Key. Mr Cunliffe came out ahead of his running mates, with 39% of the vote. Acting party leader Grant Robertson received just 15% of…

Henry Barnard

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 15:03:33 +1200

the sample size is pretty small by that point

True enough... and the sample really skewed by the fact that they only contacted people with landlines.

Hilary Stace

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 15:01:26 +1200

There is something Norman Kirk-ish about Grant Robertson – the youthful, lesser well-known Kirk (although of course a much more socially liberal one). Grant has been referring to Kirk a lot in the current roadshow, and adapting Kirk’s description of Maslov’s hierarchy of needs into his own words (as in…

Keir Leslie

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 14:39:16 +1200

I am unsure how significant that difference is --- the sample size is pretty small by that point. I don't think these polls are particularly valuable.

Henry Barnard

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 14:22:34 +1200

And notice how Cunliffe is seen as only just as trustworthy as Robertson

There is a clearer difference between them from the point of view of Labour Party supporters

Keir Leslie

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 14:12:38 +1200

Mostly, all these polls are measuring is name recognition. (Which is why Robertson’s more than doubled his support in the past two weeks.) And notice how Cunliffe is seen as only just as trustworthy as Robertson — that’s pretty concerning, indicates he has pretty high negatives. Especially given he does…

Henry Barnard

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 13:58:31 +1200

Ah.. I see, I got that one wrong. Trevor Mallard! Well, BE refers to him in passing as well on his piece on Shane Jones.

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 13:57:37 +1200

No ,I mean Trevor.

Henry Barnard

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 13:50:38 +1200

Why do people dislike him so much?

I presume you mean Shane Jones? I think Brian Edwards gives a partial, but good, explanation for it here.

Hilary Stace

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 13:49:49 +1200

I generally like Trevor (we were in the same year at school but he was sporty not political then and our paths didn't cross much). He is very upfront about things, although sometimes blunt. Was good on environmental stuff in the 80s when it wasn't that fashionable. As minister he…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 13:37:48 +1200

Why do people dislike him so much?

Sacha

Sun, 08 Sept 2013 13:25:08 +1200

Labour have some other pesky problems to sort out.