THIS JUST IN

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  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    I don't respect Small as an academic - apparently his Dad was good & the old boys net work worked against itself.
    He was made a hero/martyr by the SIS & that is really concerning - that he caught them & they though he was of interest in the 1st place.

    I'm out on Bain - really the guy talks like he had no family - I've not been where he is but it's odd.

    Seriously Ellis couldn't have done what he was convicted of without complicit assistance from his once co-accused & a few other dodgy deals - just listen to some of the acusations - they don't make any sense - outside of a child manipulated into the wee hours to say what was required.

    And Kyle mmoney is King in America & you can buy "justice".

    None of this is Terrorism & I'm not sure Labour is Centre Left anymore anyway.

    National hasn't been able to distinguish itself form Labour for the last 2 elections.

    What are Helens actions & where did Helen come from? True Blue Farming

    So why the confusion? She doesn't want to admit who she is & seemingly in the process of denial is happy to inflict collatoral damage on the innocent.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Maureen Jansen,

    What do you all think of Hager's analysis of the terror raids in today's SST?

    "The problem appears to be a mixture of poor judgement, preconceived ideas and organisational vested interest."

    I liked his backstory to the raids. Trouble is I don't know how dispassionate he is. Having seen John Campbell waving a bundle of leaked docs, which he said contained SOME quite shocking content, I still wonder if we are getting both sides of the story and feel quite frustrated by this.

    And as John Minto said, why didn't the police step in earlier and dismantle the military camps?

    Rotorua • Since Nov 2006 • 16 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    I'd trust Hager over Campbell any day.
    Having twice taken the opportunity to hear Hager speak, I'm impressed by the way he encourages questions from the audience, unshaped by the "news values" that drive television, where perception always dominates substance.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    "why didn't the police step in earlier and dismantle the military camps?"

    Well actually I would side with the police there. It isn't illegal to hang out in the bush and do group exercises. Unless they had clear evidence for firearms charges or some other obvious offence, what could the police have charged them with?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    I thought Hager made a reasonable observation here:

    the numerous police raids on and since October 15 appear to have been fishing trips by officers hoping to stumble over evidence of a plot that they had not managed to find in the previous year of intensive surveillance.

    It seems possible that the police had been passed on some faulty intelligence (enter the SIS?) leading them to believe that every house in Ruatoki was stacked to the rafters with assault rifles and napalm. This would certainly explain their bizarre behaviour when they stormed the town. Perhaps their terrorism case was contingent on finding physical evidence which could be tied to conversations they intercepted. Then when it wasn't forthcoming we saw them get a bit desperate and start raiding the homes of random environmentalists and trade unionists ('that anthrax factory has to be around here somewhere . . .')

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    It does occur to me that if these people had really been terrorists, they could have avoided all illegality by splitting their activities.

    The crawling around in the bush stuff could be done legally with paintball guns .

    For the weapons training, those without previous convictions could have obtained gun licenses and gone along to their local shooting club for a basic course.

    Pretty much the same result and not a law broken.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Paintball guns: that's actually what the National Front and co in Christchurch do, according to my informants.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    I can't be the only person who finds people who repeatedly open responses to other people's seriously argued posts with "Ha ha" very obnoxious.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    I can't be the only person who finds people who repeatedly open responses to other people's seriously argued posts with "Ha ha" very obnoxious.

    Perhaps so, but you've got to admit, the idea that "the first evidence of the use of the TSA" was someone publicising their being subject to a TSA warrant, rather than the actual issuing of the warrant, is rather laughable.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Not really. There was no evidence available to the public that the TSA had been used until that point, and all the much-maligned early media headlines about "terrorism" came from that publication of the warrant. I don't get your point at all.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    I don't really get the whole "the accused started using the word terrorist first" thing.

    As soon as the raids became news, the police had to talk about them. If they were asked with authority they conducted searches, would they have got away with saying "we can't say?"

    This just seems an absurd thing to be arguing about. If the police don't think the accused were engaged in terrorism, why did they seek to lay charges under the act?

    Arguing about whether the police used the word publicly first or not seems like quibbling to me. If the police obtain interception warrants under the TERRORISM suppression act, obtain search warrants under the TERRORISM suppression act, and then seek permission to lay charges under the TERRORISM suppression act, then I'm comfortable drawing the inference that they believe they have terrorists to deal with.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • David Cauchi,

    I can't be the only person who finds people who repeatedly open responses to other people's seriously argued posts with "Ha ha" very obnoxious.

    I presume this refers to me. I count two cases of opening with 'ha ha', only one of which was a response to someone's seriously argued post. Unfortunately, I thought the claim I was responding to was so bizarre that it was laughable, so I responded accordingly.

    I find sanctimonious complaints that allude to who they're complaining about indirectly and inaccurately fairly obnoxious, but I'm not going lose any sleep over it. Each to their own.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2007 • 121 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    I don't get your point at all.

    Pretty much what Stephen said.

    To think that a person has tagged himself as a terrorist by accurately relating that he is being pursued by the state under the Terrorism Suppression Act...

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    My notes on yesterday's symposium. Notes do not necessarily indicate endorsement of views expressed.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    Did you all see the Police evidence presented in the Sunday Herald today - If that was the best they could come up with they've obviously never been to a New Year's eve celebration at Whangamata.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    To think that a person has tagged himself as a terrorist by accurately relating that he is being pursued by the state under the Terrorism Suppression Act...

    No, that's just how all the headlines about "terror raids" came about. Nobody tagged themselves anything, just as the police didn't tag people terrorists by investigating them towards possible crimes committed under the TSA. They just investigated them and attempted to charge them, so the worst anybody has been tagged is a "nearly alleged terrorist".

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Finn,
    I wasn't suggesting that, but "tagged" was a poor choice of words, and it was a confusing comment, so I'll withdraw it.

    and have a nap.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Stephen - thank you for your notes on the symposium.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    It's always bad to gloat when you're right but I can't recall anyone gloating quite so when they're wrong.

    Is Trotter talking about the NZ Army?

    "People who think it's OK to train young Maori men to be bodyguards for the Americans in Baghdad."

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sundaystartimes/4269114a25945.html

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    The symposium must have been very interesting Stephen. I was at the conference that David Small and Aziz Choudry were involved with when the SIS raided Choudry's house (talk about inspiring paranoia!). I clearly remembering being struck most by Mike Smith speaking (it was a Mike Smith, Annette Sykes double billing, but she hardly spoke, it seemed to me at the time that they might be doing a 'men speak on the marae' thing). He provided a wonderful analysis of power dynamics in New Zealand which I took notes on and published in a magazine, before then I'd never thought of him as such an analytical type. The way he told the "how I ended up on top of one tree hill with a chainsaw" story was also fairly entertaining.

    What did Sam Buchanan have to say about the side of police that Pakeha don't see? He has 'copped it' previously so to speak, did he talk at all about the raids on the house in Wellington?

    My first thought was 'how dumb are TV3?'. If you have the document you get it on air a.s.a.p. You don't telegraph that you have it and will broadcast it in one hours time.

    This got me wondering about why the leaker didn't just put the material on the world wide web and drop the links in a few places and tell people to make their own copies and propagate it themselves. We've seen recently how court orders are powerless to suppress stuff that is online that people really want to see.

    On the presumption that the material has come from one or more police officers, and their reason for leaking was to get the material out there, I couldn't see any reason why they wouldn't have done that, unless they were still playing in the 20th century and didn't think of it.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    What Shep said - excellent post Stephen.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    What did Sam Buchanan have to say about the side of police that Pakeha don't see? He has 'copped it' previously so to speak, did he talk at all about the raids on the house in Wellington?

    He made the point that when he was scruffy punk rock youth with no obvious middle class connections, his treatment at the hands of the police was far worse than what his respectable peers would have got, and perhaps more similar to what the average Maori experiences. He also (spot the anarchist!) corrected an earlier speaker's statement that there is no history of political violence in NZ by suggesting that there is a history of state political violence.

    He didn't talk about the raids on his house though.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    The requirements (Paul Buchanan and the SG distilled them down to 5 coherent points fairly easily, so I really don't think it is that complicated or incoherent) seem to be: Ideology (shared political motivation) or the intention to force govt into something it wouldn't otherwise do; means - you gotta have the stuff and expertise to carry it out; a real plan - specific and coherent and WELL UNDERWAY; result will be loss of life or significant harm to people or harm to infrastructure that will result in harm to people

    Well said. The media discussion on the TSA so far (particularly CloseUp on Friday and Agenda on Sunday) has been disappointing. This is too important a subject to leave to the likes of professional dissidents such as Locke, Minto and Hager, who represent basically noone.

    I think it is a mistake to allow the possibility that terrorism legislation could be misused to override the reality that people who plan politically inspired violence need to be stopped.

    Since Nov 2006 • 794 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    I think it is a mistake to allow the possibility that terrorism legislation could be misused to override the reality that people who plan politically inspired violence need to be stopped.

    Believe it or not, WH, I am right behind you there.

    And the converse applies too. It's a mistake to let the reality that there are people who plan politically inspired violence railroad us into misusing legislation.

    It's all about the implementation.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    WH:

    I suggest you go to the library, and find a copy of Dame Rebecca West's The Meaning of Treason. I think she put it quite beautifully when she wrote these words:

    Since the traitor's offense is that he conspires against the liberty of his fellow countrymen to choose their way of life, we ally ourselves with him if we try to circumvent him by imposing restrictions on the liberty of the individual, when all that is needed is the conscientious enforcement of the precautions commonly taken against theft. If we do not observe these precautions the cause may be lost because it was fought too hard. Our task is equivalent to walking on a tightrope over an abyss. But history proves that if a man has a talent, it is for tightrope walking.

    I know this gets dismissed as wet pussy liberal bullshit, but perhaps it's also worth thinking about the notion that we're the beneficiaries of centuries of social, political and cultural evolution where people's fates are supposedly no longer decided by Star Chambers, feudal lords or homicidal mobs.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

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