Polity by Rob Salmond

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Polity: Refugees and aid - we’re laggards

143 Responses

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  • David Hood, in reply to Daman Saini,

    Here's the thing:

    We know that poorer countries are taking more refugees than us.
    We know that smaller countries are taking more refugees than us.
    We know that countries that turn away migrants are taking more refugees than us.
    We know denser populated countries are taking more refugees than us.
    We know lighter populated countries are taking more refugees than us.
    We know NZ (per head of population) took more refugees in the past when we were fewer.
    We know NZ (per head of population) took more refugees in the past when we were poorer.

    From all of those things (true even after the government moved to be closer to mainstream opinion), as discussed in the initial post, New Zealand has the potential to take more refugees. It is a matter of political will.

    As to how the particular Syrian refugees would do that choose to come here (and remember they are choosing) that is an unknowable because it is too specific and hasn't happened yet so it is hypothetical problems which could all have hypothetical solutions if the political will was present, for instance by settling them outside of Auckland- as it is the government is expecting Wellington to be the main destination due to the Syrian community so problems about Auckland housing are moot.

    "Earlier this week, Mr Woodhouse's spokeswoman had said many of the extra refugees were expected to be transferred from Mangere to Wellington, because of the existing infrastructure and Syrian community in the capital."

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/355472/mayor-calls-refugee-centre-dunedin

    but hypothetically if the government was interested it could settle people in other than Waikato, Wellington, Manawatu and Nelson.

    What we do know, from refugees generally, and have no reason to believe it is the slightest different in this case is that the people consider themselves to have benefitted, and the state tends to "make" more in taxation from these motivated hard working refugees than the costs in resettlement. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730383-800-why-welcoming-more-refugees-makes-economic-sense-for-europe/ But reducing a moral issue to an economic one is a bit creepy.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to David Hood,

    I think ifitweremyhome have a data error, the GINI coefficient for NZ is lower (lower is more equal) than the United Kingdom.

    Maybe so, I haven't checked, I'll take your word for it but the site itself...
    IfItWereMyHome is a rich source of information that is, otherwise, not easily accessed. A bit like wikipedia, a great starting point.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to chris,

    12.07% more of a class divide”. What in hades happened here?

    In one word... Thatcher.
    nb. Her policies ended up here later, like the Rolling Stones albums in the 70s.
    Then again, Ayn Rand?.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to David Hood,

    "Earlier this week, Mr Woodhouse's spokeswoman had said many of the extra refugees were expected to be transferred from Mangere to Wellington, because of the existing infrastructure and Syrian community in the capital."

    Ghetto building?.
    Who would have thought that a Government of New Zealand, especially one led by the son of a refugee from second world war Austria, would consider such an idea?.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    Refugees generally go into state houses, so I don't think that there is any ghettoing going on- the will (based on general New Zealand practice) be in mixed neighbourhoods, it is just there are a bunch of people from Syria in the Wellington area already which makes language/ culture easier to bridge.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    I agree ifitweremyhome is nifty, but I checked the gini figures in a few different places (NZ, UK, World Bank) and there result means they either have bad data on this, or they are misinterpreting a high GINI as more equal- either way the result for that aspect is screwy.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Yes, I did wonder about the class devide comparison to the UK. The New Zealand Priminister offers knight hoods for being mongrel at Rugby, for example.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4411 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to David Hood,

    I have to say that, as far as I can tell, through factoids and accusations, that we only have available State Houses either in the "wrong place" or in a state of repair close to condemnation so the "ghettoing" will also become privatised, ever heard of Halliburton, Carlyle or Serco?
    "We can deal with that eventuality"

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    Well, the government do seem keen on paying someone else more money to do a worse job for things the government was doing badly to start with (even if governments of the past managed it well) possibly in order to have someone else to blame - prisons, schools, housing, etc. However, for the moment, refugees do tend to be in State Houses (they also tend to have larger family sizes that quite suit the size of state house of years past).

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    "Oh, and by the way, Ian doesn’t do evidence, he is an Artist.
    Being an Artist means conveying your meaning in an abstract form, being subjective"

    YOU HAVE NAGGED ME ABOUT HOW I NEED TO GET MY EVIDENCE, BUT Ian, DOESN'T HAVE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE, BECAUSE HE IS SUBJECTIVE.

    I WAS BEING SUBJECTIVE, SUBJECTIVE MEANS = MY UNDERSTANDING

    Oh man, if you could say those things if i was infront of you. ahahaha would be a different story mate

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to linger,

    Ethics? Never knew there are ethics in blogs?
    Most people are just typing from their basements, only ethics they get to learn are when they come out and grab a sandwich from their mother

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Cut your shit mate. Had enough of you

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • Daman Saini, in reply to BenWilson,

    My age has nothing to do with it, but when I saw that the average age here is 45. I realised that it is a bunch of old angry men, who cannot get the outcome that they want, and just hate on everything, was shocking.
    Just a bunch of old men arguing, instead of physically helping. Can you guys even run a mile?
    Not a mile on the keyboard, I can see you can do that easily.

    Since Sep 2015 • 31 posts Report Reply

  • Maz,

    Daman, I was having a go at you, so don't for a second think that we agree.
    My point is that we do have the resources, that we do have room, space, ability to take many, many more refugees. Net migration is 50000+, gross figures near 100000/year, so we could so easily take tens of thousand refugees.

    You could argue that people who emigrate via the usual channels are the queue jumpers; that they get in via money, nice western education etc. Why could we not substitute some of them for far more in need Syrians and Afghani? We could and we should.

    This is about being human beings and helping out where the need is great, and people are suffering. Screw our solipsistic pettiness.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 30 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Daman Saini,

    Cut your shit mate. Had enough of you

    Cut.
    Your.
    Shit.
    Mate.

    Had.
    Enough.
    Of.
    You.

    ...and there is my evidence!
    stacks up nicely...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7943 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    YOU HAVE NAGGED ME
    ABOUT HOW I NEED TO GET MY EVIDENCE,
    BUT Ian, DOESN'T HAVE TO

    My age has nothing to do with it,

    And,
    I could suggest that would be Steve's ;)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    ...and there is my evidence!
    stacks up nicely...

    Nicely played Sir.
    I am getting a bit frightened though, he used capital letters... yes CAPITAL LETTERS I tell you, oh the huge manatee.
    I kid you not, I had visions of him pounding away on his Fisher-Price keyboard with an maniacal look on his poor little chubby face, I feared for my breakfast.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    My average age may well be close to 45, but I'm pretty confident I'm not an angry old man. I'm really not angry most of the time, and I'm definitely not a man. I've also noticed quite a lot of other not-men on the site.
    Of course, I may be old, since old is relative. But bear in mind, Daman, that if you're lucky, being old is inevitable, so perhaps reconsider your contempt on grounds of age.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 585 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    CAP-IT-ALL-ISM has a lot to answer for...

    I had visions of him pounding away on his Fisher-Price keyboard ...

    Meltdown in the toy aisle.
    Perhaps Russell can write a note to his/her/its parents/course supervisor/programmers...
    What sort of places run third year comms courses?
    Can't be many...
    Probably mail order - doesn't play well with others...
    (or is that 'alpha male order'?)

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7943 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Now we have to run a mile to have our arguments taken seriously by communications students? Things have changed a lot since I was at university.

    (I am also not a dude, ftr. I do get mildly annoyed when people are mind-numbingly crap at constructing arguments, but I wouldn't say it fills me with rage or anything.)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    What sort of places run third year comms courses?
    Can’t be many

    Young Natz I guess , under the watchful eye of the propaganda meister Joyce or some other shape shifting reptile.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood, in reply to Danielle,

    communications students? Things have changed a lot since I was at university.

    People are just making the assumption that he is a University student, for all we know he could be at high school.

    I think, looking back through the thread I resolutely gave him every opportunity to engage with comments that seemed to match what he was looking for, but those, from his actions, seem to be the ones he was least interested in replying to or engaging with.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    Incidentally, if you realise the median age of all New Zealanders was 38 years in 2013, and assume there are not many under six year olds reading PA, an average in the mid-40s (where does that number come from anyway) is consistent with PA being read by a full range of the non-child NZ population.

    Now I am not saying it is- I have no idea of the distribution around that figure, but an average somewhere else would make it less likely to be representative.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to David Hood,

    People are just making the assumption that he is a [...] student

    Troll = troll. Among all the post(ur)ing, that’s all we can be certain of.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1923 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to linger,

    Among all the post(ur)ing, that’s all we can be certain of.

    It is only Nat troll...
    ;-)
    /coat

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

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