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Speaker: John Roughan is Scared

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  • Martin Lindberg,

    I've also seen ads placed by MoJ suggesting that bus travel was what happened to people who didn't pay their fines. I guess that's what they call joined-up government?

    Yes, that was just appalling. Especially as they were at the bus stop.

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 802 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Question for those who do actually catch the train to the Britomart. Several people have mentioned that the line to the Britomart is single tracked, and I'm confused because I can clearly see two tracks on Google maps, going all the way to Newmarket. Is one of these not being used? If not, why not?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • andrea quin,

    Labour had passed legislation and everything. National canned it when they came in, at least in part because they're terrified of what might happen if Auckland got the power

    So true. At least they saved us from a potentially fatal 10c increase in petrol prices though, right? Oh.

    Auckland • Since Dec 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Ben, one line in, one line out. Same as a "single lane road" actually have two lanes, but only one in each direction. It's a consequence of Britomart being a dead-end station.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • 81stcolumn,

    Especially since pensioners get heavily subsidised public transport.

    My mum got her bus pass a few years back in the UK and was delighted at the prospect of free bus rides. What she didn't figure was terms that included no free travel after 10 pm. Having spent a Friday evening in the manner that any licensee would be famiuliar with, she tottered on to the bus with barefly enough money to get home. Apparently pensioners aren't supposed to be out that late at night........

    Nawthshaw • Since Nov 2006 • 790 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler,

    Question for those who do actually catch the train to the Britomart. Several people have mentioned that the line to the Britomart is single tracked, and I'm confused because I can clearly see two tracks on Google maps, going all the way to Newmarket. Is one of these not being used? If not, why not?

    I suppose you mean:

    Britomart, with a single line in and a single line out

    So one (1) track in plus one (1) track out = two (2) tracks. You're both right :-)

    Of course either track can be either in or out, but once there is at least one train in the station (or more accurately, between Newmarket and the station), that collapses the probabilities such that the line it's in becomes the only line out, and the other the only line in.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 856 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    The CBD?

    Albany may be "Auckland's silicon valley" but only in the sense of being an unsustainable, car
    dependent, suburban sprawl.

    All those outer suburbs will evolve into Sydney style edge slums as the price of petrol increases and economic travel to work areas shrink.

    People need to accept that sustainable living in the 21st century is going to mean urban living. not endless quarter acre subdivision. .

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    Yes, stations. Britomart is a terminus, a stopping point. Grafton and Mt Eden aren't designed for tens-of-thousands of passengers an hour, they're designed for hundreds, at most, because they're meant to be points along the way not destinations.

    Mt Eden could be expanded at a damned sight less expense than boring a 2.5 km tunnel trough solid rock. And if we did that then guess what - not all train services would need to terminate in Britomart. The Mt Eden rail line is closer to K'road/Uni than Britomart, but all the CBD interconnecting bus services (including K'rd) converge on Britomart creating an unneeded bottleneck. Renovating Mt Eden station could take a third of the passenger load off Britomart, because half the CBD is close enough to Mt Eden. And allow further trains to be run in from the burbs.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • JWT1,

    Some comparison figures for a European city about the size of Auckland:

    Prague (Czech Republic)
    Population: 1.3 million
    Pop. Density; 2500/km2
    GDP (Czech Republic) $US18500
    Prague public transport
    Underground rail 50 km ( 3 lines. 50 stations)
    Frequency: 2-3 min peak, 4-10 min off peak 5am to midnight
    Trams: 500 km of track
    Frequency: 8-10 mins 4.30 am to midnight, (10-15 mins weekends) 40 mins midnight to 4.30 am.



    Auckland
    Population: 1.3 million
    Pop. Density 1270/km2
    GDP (NZ) $US28500

    I suspect the difference in population density probably has something to do with the lack of public transport in Auckland

    Manawatu • Since Aug 2010 • 12 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    So Matthew what do you can a road that only has one lane, for both directions? Which is what was the case for the Western Line until recently, and was what I would have called "Single tracked", since it is now referred to as "Double tracked".

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • andrea quin,

    I suspect the difference in population density probably has something to do with the lack of public transport in Auckland

    You suspect wrongly... There are both more and less dense cities than Auckland which have better and worse public transport. To some extent, better transport creates greater density around itself as people want to be near the transport hubs. There was a long discussion on this recently akl transport blog

    Auckland • Since Dec 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Auckland actually has a fairly decent population density, more so than a lot of other Australian cities that have invested in rail, either recently (Perth) or a long time ago (Sydney, Melbourne). Again, I thank Joshua Arbury for doing this work.

    Auckland's density is thanks to the relatively decent lot sizes, and the 1990s implementation of the metropolitan urban limit. The MUL meant lots of infill housing. Unfortunately, not enough medium density zoning occured, in part due to the negligence of local councils. The supercity in principle will be much better able to address these issues. If the "let it sprall" lot had their way, Auckland would probably now stretch from Pokeno to Wellsford.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler,

    I suspect the difference in population density probably has something to do with the lack of public transport in Auckland

    Yes - the lack of public transport options has contributed to the failure to restrict the city's urban sprawl. Or is that not what you meant...

    It's true that European cities tend to have both higher urban density and better public transport than Auckland, but there are any number of sound historical reasons why that might be which don't involve positing that "public transport is only viable in high-density cities".

    A more in-depth discussion is here.

    Edit: LOL andrea quin, you're always just that much faster than me :-)

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 856 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Andrea, snap.

    It's a pity Joshua is on holiday in the US right now, I know he'd be a great addition to this conversation.

    Edit: James, bingo.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I think Angus has made the arguement My Roughan would have liked to make.

    Except that the conclusions drawn from that report are flawed. As someone who has spent a lot of time in Singapore over the past decade or so (some 30 visits since 2005, several extended), the stations in the CBD and destination points tend to be a lot closer together than 2000m. Orchard Road, which is only 2km long, has 3 stations, including the new, massive, central line station. All of these have underground tentacles, food and shopping regions, which stretch and feed into the stations for huge distances. The same is true of the City Hall and Chinatown zones. Unlike Auckland they don't sit in isolation.

    In the 'burbs, they can be much further apart.

    Then again, my experience of Auckland is always a little different. I always enjoy how little traffic there is in the city when back.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Then again, my experience of Auckland is always a little different. I always enjoy how little traffic there is in the city when back.

    I suspect anything would look good in comparison to Bangkok. Which, not incidentally, has finally got round to starting on a decent rail system, if I understand correctly.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    I thought your whole argument was that these stations could be getting off points for the CBD and thereby alleviate the congestion to Britomart. Instead you seem to be saying that simply by passing through these stations (maybe even hopping off for a look around?) on the way to Britomart will clear the bottleneck there. Hmmm.

    Some of the trains would not be going to Britomart, they would be continuing south or west. People would get off these trains and on to buses for the Uni, AUT or Uptown destinations.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I suspect anything would look good in comparison to Bangkok. Which, not incidentally, has finally got round to starting on a decent rail system, if I understand correctly.

    Superb, skytrain and underground systems, but not new: they've just celebrated their 10th anniversary. Efficient, fast and cheap. I find getting around this city fairly easy. The canal boat will get you from east to west and vice versa in 10 mins.

    The worst traffic though by far is Jakarta which is at a standstill 24/7. 20m+ and no public transport. Nightmare.

    But I wasn't just comparing Auckland to BKK: any reasonable Asian city (and many European cities), even Bali, which is just gridlock now, have traffic that makes Auckland's look fairly tame.

    None of which excuses the fact that something needs to be done about it before it turns into that.

    I love driving in Auckland, it's so fast and easy. But Aucklanders tend to get really pissed off when I tell them that.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    [in] Singapore ...the stations in the CBD and destination points tend to be a lot closer together than 2000m.

    likewise downtown melbourne has about 5 stations in a ring, all at key points feeding into the tram network. some of which are only about a km apart.

    one station, say flinders, would be ridiculous.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • andrea quin,

    LOL andrea quin, you're always just that much faster than me

    What can I say....I do my best.

    It is kinda depressing how often all these tired old arguments come up and how easy it is for someone who has studied it at all can bat away the criticisms. But how do you kill a zombie?

    Auckland • Since Dec 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    So Matthew what do you can a road that only has one lane, for both directions?

    I believe the term-of-art is "one-lane road". I find it confusing and illogical too.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    likewise downtown melbourne has about 5 stations in a ring, all at key points feeding into the tram network. some of which are only about a km apart.

    They're a pleasure to use, when they're not breaking down in summer heat. I hope we'll have something to approximate this within a decade. Melbourne's inner-city is well served, but its hypersprawling outer-suburbs built in the 1970s-2010s are awfully neglected. They make Auckland's underserved Eastern suburbs look decent in comparison.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    But how do you kill a zombie?

    It is difficult to kill that which does not exist. Myths persist as long as there are people who want to believe them.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Angus, Mt Eden station is closer than Britomart to AUTU and U.Auck? Really? On what planet? It's a fast 10-minute walk from Britomart to Wellesley St/Symonds St. It's another nearly-10 minute fast walk from Wellesley St/Symonds St to K'Rd. I know because I've done it frequently. It's at least another 10 minutes from there to Mt Eden train station, if I'm reading Google Maps correctly.

    Your argument seems to be along the lines of "Get people close enough and make them walk/bus the rest" rather than "Get people as close to their destination as possible by a single mode." Changing modes is a disincentive to use public transport, especially if the mode change has to be done so close to the destination.
    Have you paid attention to the distribution of employment within the CBD. Most of it is east of Wellesley St, as is the majority part of the tertiary campuses. Most of the really high-density office space is east of Victoria St. This is observable with a walk around the CBD.

    Where would you send all these buses you want to have servicing the Mt Eden train station? If you want to take a third of train passengers off at Mt Eden and get most of them to then bus to their CBD destination, you're going to need a whole hell of a lot of buses. Stopping where, exactly, without jamming up Mt Eden worse than it normally is? Have you actually thought this through, or just jerked your knee at the $1.5b figure for the tunnel? What's your position on the Puhoi extension, incidentally?

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    I was in Prague this time last year and the public transport is pretty good, with the exception of there being no rail to the airport. Excellent and quick tramby service. The key difference with trams against buses is the way no joker thinks they can block the
    tram lane for "just 60 yards"
    If you try, your car is likely to wind up as scrap metal.

    I understand Uncle Joe built the Prague metro using Tories as slave labour. O that we could follow suit..

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

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