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Speaker: John Roughan is Scared

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  • Angus Robertson,

    In the 'burbs, they can be much further apart.

    Our 'burbs houses probably average 10 or 15 km from a station. Adding line to reach more of these potential customers can be done much more cost effectively than tunneling under Albert Park.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Each of the proposed new stations will be placed within 1400 m of an existing station. This study (pdf) of Singapore's MRT system shows their design criteria was for station catchments to be 2000 m radius

    Last time I checked, a 1400m straight line would equate to a 2800m radius. And at an average human walking speed of 4km/h 1400m's still a 17-minute walk.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    [in] Singapore ...the stations in the CBD and destination points tend to be a lot closer together than 2000m.

    If Angus' post was correct, they were talking about 2km catchment radius which implies closer to 4km between stations.

    likewise downtown melbourne has about 5 stations in a ring, all at key points feeding into the tram network. some of which are only about a km apart.

    Sydney, London, NY all have stations closer than 2km. Sydney has 7 CBD stations and no adjacent pair is more than about 1km apart. In fact 1km spacing is pretty common throughout the inner suburbs in Sydney.

    Wider spaced stations with buses filling in just does not work as well. When I lived in Sydney it took me 40mins to travel 25km to work by rail. My wife took the same train for the first 13km and then had to bus 4km. It took her the same amount of time to get to work.

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I love driving in Auckland, it's so fast and easy. But Aucklanders tend to get really pissed off when I tell them that.

    I don't. I lived in Melbourne for 5 years, and it has great public transport, but getting around Auckland is still a shitload faster, cheaper, and more convenient.

    But more public transport now will keep it that way, and will allow Auckland to grow. Melbourne does have nearly as many people as all of NZ in it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    Last time I checked, a 1400m straight line would equate to a 2800m radius. And at an average human walking speed of 4km/h 1400m's still a 17-minute walk.

    Huh? Wouldn't a 1400m gap between stations imply a 700m radius?

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • andrea quin,

    Angus, what are you basing all your opinions on? It seems to me like you are just making shit up.

    tunneling under Albert Park

    The prefered tunnel route doesnt go under Albert Park. INdeed, it doesn't have a station right next to the Universities (it follows Albert st more closely, with stops in Aotea Sq, K Road and the top of Symonds st.) Have a look at
    this post.

    Auckland • Since Dec 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Our 'burbs houses probably average 10 or 15 km from a station. Adding line to reach more of these potential customers can be done much more cost effectively than tunneling under Albert Park.

    ROFL. Now you're really taking the piss. Land to run train lines doesn't come for free. There's no corridor established to the south-east or the north, so one has to be created. That's hundreds-of-millions of dollars for a meaningful length of line, and we still haven't dealt with the issue of Britomart's capacity. Expanding Mt Eden to deal with thousands of passengers an hour won't be cheap, once you account for the platform egress work (gotta be able to evacuate the station rapidly) and all the work on nearby roads to allow for these buses you're after.

    The tunnel is a pretty cheap way to double the capacity of the existing rail network, when you think about it. If you think about it, which you appear unwilling to do. Assuming that a line to Howick/Botany is attached to the Eastern Line rather than the Southern Line, all the trains would have to come into Britomart anyway. And even if it did go to the Southern Line, would services go to Mt Eden or Britomart? Why divert trains up to a nowhere stop at Mt Eden where they can't change direction when they could go right to Britomart which is where most passengers want to go anyway? A line to the Shore will absolutely come into Britomart, so you haven't changed anything there.
    For all your anger and hatred aimed at the CBD tunnel, it's the most cost-efficient way of increasing capacity of the existing network. And once that's done, it becomes feasible to add lines into densely-populated areas that currently don't have any train service. It's also a pre-requisite for rail to the Shore to tunnel out the other end of Britomart.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • andrea quin,

    I love driving in Auckland, it's so fast and easy. But Aucklanders tend to get really pissed off when I tell them that.

    Yeah, Auckland is pretty easy to get around in a car except during rush hours along certain routes. And no amount of PT is going to stop traffic congestion -- if congestion goes down much, driving looks that much better and people jump in their cars. But Auckland is very hard to get around without a car and we're running out of space to squeeze in more cars.

    Auckland • Since Dec 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Kurt Mastrovich,

    I think a K'Rd station and thus a city loop makes an inordinate amount of sense. It would also future-proof to some extent the PT network, again makes sense. But that will of course be its downfall.

    As it stands at the moment I enjoy getting a rental car when I'm home and buzzing around Auckland. But I realise that is a small snapshot and things are only going to get worse.

    I just got back to Indonesia after 10 days in Bangkok and made use of the BTS (Skytrain) and MRT and both are excellent. Apparently the MRT makes a loss while the BTS is profit-making but it seems as though the MRT network is a little limited and there is scope for more stations to make it more usable (at least from a tourist viewpoint, and there were lots of them around).

    I have done about 10 trips to Singapore in the last 2 and a bit years and it was my favourite city (now second to Hong Kong) largely because of the fantastic MRT system. You can conceivably walk above ground short distances between stations in the areas Simon listed. In some cases you can remain underground in air-conditioned comfort (its all about options and spreading the flow).

    Don't get me started on Jakarta. Its what I think Auckland will be like in 40 years time after the apocalypse. I hate that city with a passion that border's on insanity. But Auckland can learn much from the hideous mess that is the Big Durian. There seems to be increasing discussion on the idea of moving the capital, possibly to another island in an attempt to help ease congestion. An MRT is planned (although so was a monorail in the early 00's and since abandoned) from memory service entry is set for 2015. One major problem I see is the fact that the city is sinking under its own weight at the rate of 10cm per year!

    Auckland, while it will never get to a scale of the Asian Tiger cities can learn a lot from the varied experience and achieve a realistic PT system. Next step that city loop eh.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2010 • 13 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Kurt, selamat datang teman, dan bahagia hari kemerdekaan. What's the sentiment like in Jayapura today - I'm guessing there are a lot of people unenthusiastic about official celebrations?

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Wouldn't a 1400m gap between stations imply a 700m radius

    Yes, my bad. Too little sleep, too little coffee. Though that 700m radius is still at the upper end of the 400-800m walking distance in the report that Angus cited. What he didn't say is that 2km is only viable with feeder services, and that use of the MTR decreases as the necessity to use feeder services increases. The majority of MTR users walk, and the majority of walkers live less than 1km from an MTR station. That's from the same study.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    Though that 700m radius is still at the upper end of the 400-800m walking distance in the report that Angus cited.

    Yes, I'd be reluctant to walk much further than that. Especially if it was wet.

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Yes, I'd be reluctant to walk much further than that. Especially if it was wet.

    And this is Auckland!

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I hate that city with a passion that border's on insanity.

    Bizarrely, I quite like JKT, but only for brief periods (3-5 days maximum). I've spent a lot of time there, and love the food and mix of sub-cultures. Bahasa as spoken on the streets is fascinating and confusing.

    But, yes, it's a filthy broken dump as well.

    although so was a monorail in the early 00's and since abandoned

    you can still see the unfinished pillars on Jalan Asia-Afrika in Senayan - rusting between the mega malls and the Gucci.

    It effectively stopped because the funding was pilfered, and more was needed to pay off endless property owners who put their hands out. But that's Indonesia.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Bizarrely, I quite like JKT, but only for brief periods (3-5 days maximum). I've spent a lot of time there, and love the food and mix of sub-cultures. Bahasa as spoken on the streets is fascinating and confusing.

    But, yes, it's a filthy broken dump as well.

    I'm very likely moving to Jakarta for at least 4 month next year, but only because there's something I absolutely want to do there. I currently live in Canberra, a paradigmatic example of overplanning, blandness, and wide empty streets, so I think the opposite might seem attractive for at least a couple of days.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    if congestion goes down much, driving looks that much better and people jump in their cars

    The solution to that is to heavily ration parking space, and make it very expensive to take a private motor vehicle into the CBD or other areas that are similarly well-served by public transport.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    The CBD?

    In what space? It's not like the CBD is, in normal economic conditions, overflowing with an abundance of unoccupied office space. It's also distinctly unsuited to manufacturing, and doesn't exactly have space to accommodate tens-of-thousands of people coming from two- and three-bedroom residential areas.

    Albany may be "Auckland's silicon valley" but only in the sense of being an unsustainable, car dependent, suburban sprawl.

    uh huh. It's also home to a goodly number of IT companies, including software exporters and data centres. Why should I pay you any attention if you know so little about the areas you disparage?

    All those outer suburbs will evolve into Sydney style edge slums as the price of petrol increases and economic travel to work areas shrink.

    Albany is served by quite good public transport, if you're OK with being restricted to buses. Feeder services into the busway, plus local bus services. The big problems are for the suburbs out in the south-east, designed with no public transport in mind other than the local bus stop.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • andrea quin,

    The solution to that is to heavily ration parking space, and make it very expensive to take a private motor vehicle into the CBD or other areas that are similarly well-served by public transport.

    You are not going to "solve" congestion. What is the point of having all these streets if you are so actively discouraging cars to drive on them? If you dont want cars there, don't let them in.

    Auckland • Since Dec 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Andrea, I was more meaning that you stop people thinking "Oh, the roads are so empty, I'll stop taking the bus" by making it expensive to revert to their car-loving ways. That step has to come after you give them viable options, which is the part that bypassed the Auckland City Council when it wanted to extend the hours of metered parking. It's not an option to take public transport in the late evening for a lot of people. Likewise congestion charging, when reliable, affordable options are mostly not available.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I think a K'Rd station and thus a city loop makes an inordinate amount of sense.

    It occurs to me that it would also be a boon for the hospitality sector in the evenings. Easy mobility between downtown and K Road without a car sounds fun. Indeed, it would have been great for the RWC crowds next year ...

    And when I were a lad, people had to go all the way to London to have the experience of being off their 'eads on the Tube.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22825 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    The tunnel is a pretty cheap way to double the capacity of the existing rail network, when you think about it. If you think about it, which you appear unwilling to do. Assuming that a line to Howick/Botany is attached to the Eastern Line rather than the Southern Line, all the trains would have to come into Britomart anyway. And even if it did go to the Southern Line, would services go to Mt Eden or Britomart? Why divert trains up to a nowhere stop at Mt Eden where they can't change direction when they could go right to Britomart which is where most passengers want to go anyway? A line to the Shore will absolutely come into Britomart, so you haven't changed anything there.

    They would proceed from Papakura to Mt Eden to Henderson. West Auckland is not a "nowhere stop".

    Putting a line from Britomart to the Shore would increase the number of tracks leading out of Britomart by 100% (doubling its capacity).

    For all your anger and hatred aimed at the CBD tunnel, it's the most cost-efficient way of increasing capacity of the existing network. And once that's done, it becomes feasible to add lines into densely-populated areas that currently don't have any train service. It's also a pre-requisite for rail to the Shore to tunnel out the other end of Britomart.

    I'm not angry and feel no hatred for it, it is however still a waste of money, because the existing network is a joke. Our network serves too few Aucklanders. Let's not gild the existing sow's ear to the tune of $1.5 billion +.

    Putting a subway in the CBD would be politically difficult, perhaps suicidal, because our train network is so lacking. Can you think of a scheme more likely to piss off the Northshore, Manukau, Waitakere, Rodney, Franklin? I reckon you could find one, but it might take a while (maybe an Olympics bid).

    As a first step to improving public transport, it is the one most likely to be a last step.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Andrea, I was more meaning that you stop people thinking "Oh, the roads are so empty, I'll stop taking the bus" by making it expensive to revert to their car-loving ways.

    I really don't like this idea. If the roads are empty then they could be used, what's the problem with that? That encourages people to use their cars at different times to spread the load, which is a good idea. We might as well get the most we can out of our roads as well, rather than adding artificial costs to using them.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    I'm not angry and feel no hatred for it, it is however still a waste of money, because the existing network is a joke. Our network serves too few Aucklanders

    To repeat myself, the CBD tunnel is desperately needed to increase capacity. Britomart is already under strain. Until those capacity constraints are fixed, an Eastern line, the Airport line, increased services on other lines, and more regular services are literally impossible.

    Unless you want to build a huge shunting yard at Penrose station, and turn all the trains around there, short of their destinations.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    They would proceed from Papakura to Mt Eden to Henderson. West Auckland is not a "nowhere stop".

    You're talking about a whole new train line, going from South to West? Is there a proven demand for this?

    I personally wouldn't have a problem with it, if there's any demand, but is there? Most train lines around the world go into and out of the city, not across town. Unless you're talking a really big city like London, then the trains go everywhere. In Auckland, if you want to go West from South, you have to change trains somewhere, probably Newmarket?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • Kurt Mastrovich,

    Kurt, selamat datang teman, dan bahagia hari kemerdekaan. What's the sentiment like in Jayapura today - I'm guessing there are a lot of people unenthusiastic about official celebrations?

    Terima kasih banyak. Just got 'home' this morning and the airport is of course decked out in merah dan putih. Sentani always seems to miss out on the action but there has been some violence in Mulia and Wamena recently and then of course the death threats to journalists in Merauke. Nabire can also be a bit of a hotbed at times but so far all seems quiet on the eastern front. Rampant un-enthusiasm in these parts is not necessarly a bad thing.

    Bizarrely, I quite like JKT, but only for brief periods (3-5 days maximum).

    To be fair at times I do actually enjoy it, the abundance of Sushi Tei outlets is a big plus. An MRT connecting them all would please me greatly but so much of my time in Jakarta is spent in the back seat of a taxi and its just a bit soul-destroying :).

    Auckland • Since Aug 2010 • 13 posts Report Reply

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