Speaker by Various Artists

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Speaker: A Disorderly Brexit

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  • simon g, in reply to Alfie,

    It can be hard to pick up irony online, so I'll have to guess that's what you are trying here. Otherwise, I can only suggest re-reading and understanding what "building a coalition" obviously means.

    Meanwhile, are we still going with the assumption that "protest in London = votes in the UK"? Because the Remain supporters have been out there too, and in greater numbers than the Corbyn fan club.

    To repeat the questions (and does anyone want to answer it?): Will Corbyn's Labour support Brexit or not? Where will he stand if there is an early election, BEFORE Britain has left the EU? And especially, what is he planning to tell voters in Scotland?

    That is a vastly more important question than what a bunch of second-rate plotters are up to. Saying "I heart Jeremy" doesn't cut it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1219 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    people evolved

    Ever heard of social darwinism? Its the wrongheaded belief that societies "evolve" like species do in their natural state.It turned out a very nasty meme "survival of the fittest"
    If you want societies to evolve to be "better" it takes a lot of conscious effort by everyone in specific areas of social interaction. Also depends on the adopted definition of "better" ...or something like that

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1659 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Johnson,

    Actually now we are all pro-europe here in n.z how about a 35 hour working week and more taxing up the top. Let's show our support by copying France.

    hamilton • Since Mar 2016 • 97 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Maybe now would be a good time for an HDCA complaint against Mr Frank.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5545 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to simon g,

    It can be hard to pick up irony online, so I’ll have to guess that’s what you are trying here. Otherwise, I can only suggest re-reading and understanding what “building a coalition” obviously means.

    If you see any irony in my statement Simon, you're probably looking too hard. You disagree with my assessment that there's a groundswell of support building for Corbyn. Fair enough. Let's just leave it at that and see what eventuates.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1333 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Give it a try. There'd be a tad less chance we all die of boredom.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 153 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to andin,

    Indeed, and I don't disagree with anything you wrote. Although social darwinism didn't stick as ideology, it often appears to be working out in real life in various social contexts. Most obviously, as driven by market forces. You could also cite team sports, eh?

    Memetics has achieved considerable traction. There is some merit in the semiotic critique, but thought contagion is evident through vast arenas of human activity. It's why advertising works, and propaganda. Not to mention education...

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 153 posts Report Reply

  • simon g, in reply to Alfie,

    Alfie, I was looking for an irony because I was nonplussed by your reply. Coalition-building doesn't mean what you seem to think it means, by citing Blair's election victories (did you really think they had slipped my mind?).

    Labour need votes, ergo a broad coalition of interests. It was ever thus, from Attlee to now. Without the Remain voters, Corbyn is stuffed. Thousands of members don't beat millions of voters, even if they all have placards.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1219 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    thought contagion is evident through vast arenas of human activity.

    Its a veritable minefield
    Who's monitoring the battleground?
    Anyone?...NO ONE!
    Booby traps ... everywhere?
    Right that's it!
    I'm building a wall ;-\

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1659 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to andin,

    I have just the thing for you.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 443 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    Without the Remain voters, Corbyn is stuffed. Thousands of members don’t beat millions of voters, even if they all have placards.

    I am a remain supporter, but I have just about had enough of the entitled whining from the remain camp. There have been serious discussions in the quality press in the UK at the need to do away with the universal franchise, like a bunch of urban middle class yellow shirts in Bangkok bemoaning the stupid people to dumb to be allowed to vote.

    The collective wisdom of the pro remain PLP that wants Corbyn gone committed Britain to the disgraceful Iraqi debacle, has lost Scotland forever, lost two general elections, lost a leadership contest and lost the referendum. Pretty smart cookies they are. Now the PLP expects to be able to stand up on it’s hind legs and stand on it’s authority to bray about how it knows best.

    The mainstream left has been completely hamstrung in it’s ability to respond to the rise of fascism because it’s chief vehicles in parliament are hopelessly compromised by now being part of the problem, supporting the neoliberal status quo and drawing it’s MPs from exactly the same narrow establishment class as the right. The battle between Corbyn and his mass movement is an existential battle for the existence and future of the Labour party. This isn’t a leftist social democratic PLP battling militant tendency anymore, It is a bunch of self serving neo Tories at war with the fundamental principles of the Labour party. If the PLP win, Labour is doomed. Voters will always prefer the bold Tory shout to a feeble Labour echo. And the people who want real change will simply flock to the fascists, because the mainstream parties will have proved so decadent they are incapable of reform. A victory for Corbyn and the defection of the PLP Blairites will be a terrible thing in the short term. But a Labour party that is again a party of the poor and desperate and a genuine change option might just have a future. And that might mean supporting Brexit.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2158 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    I am a remain supporter, but I have just about had enough of the entitled whining from the remain camp. There have been serious discussions in the quality press in the UK at the need to do away with the universal franchise, like a bunch of urban middle class yellow shirts in Bangkok bemoaning the stupid people to dumb to be allowed to vote.

    I think you'll enjoy Jonathan Pie's latest, then!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22293 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,


    Worth 20 mins of your time for an ordered viewpoint

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2819 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    or 4 minutes if you'd rather enjoy a familiar meme:

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19428 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    enjoy Jonathan Pie's latest

    fucking brilliant

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19428 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Austin, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    Whereas I'm sick of people calling Remain "whiners" and "poor losers". Just recall, if you will, that the newspapers and pundits are not the Remain camp. They are just people who may have voted that way and feel strongly about it. They do not necessarily speak for the Remain camp anymore than I do. Remember, we are not a party and we don't really have spokespeople, not anymore anyway.

    In any event, I went to the London rally on Saturday, which was interesting. Aside from the usual suspects (Socialist Worker etc), the people I met largely were new to the rally game (myself included). We marched from Park Lane to Parliament Square via Trafalgar Square. I've no real idea how many turned up but the square was full up and people were backed up someway up Whitehall. It was pretty positive stuff really. No whining or the like. The basic message was - get involved, use your anger and annoyance to make real change and don't give up.

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1013 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Austin,

    Oh and farage has just resigned.

    All weekend I was wondering what benefit there would be to the Conservatives giving him a seat in the Lords, assuming no South Thanet by election and could not think of one but now I'm wondering if there is a deal anyway.

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1013 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2819 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    Yeah - I was thinking he might want to be sir nigel but a seat in the lords would be just the ticket for m. Farange.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2066 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    A weak pro European performance, Mr Farage on fire:


    Is he demagogue or not just telling the blatant truth?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    defendue par Patrick Sebastien??

    Where will this journey end?

    Europe is DEAD, I think, the idea is, the rest is a sceleton of a fabric of "union".

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    This shows how much contempt exists within Europe and how disunited even the European Parliament is, for those here, that have some fantasy idea about the harmony and ideals that supposedly exist, it is a broken dream, for sure:

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    This is astonishing:

    How bizarre is he a peace maker, he seems almost like a leftist liberal.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell,

    So, what is your point, Marc C?

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 443 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C, in reply to John Farrell,

    Well, many go on about the "Brexit" vote in the UK and about Europe, but do not bother listening to and reading about the very arguments the ones in favour of an exit from the EU have delivered over the years.

    One may agree or disagree, I thought it is worth listening to what some Eurosceptics or opponents to the way the EU is run have to say. It is not without reason that the "Brexit" happened, and it is not without reason that there is a growth in somewhat nationalist movements in many European countries and democracies.

    I would have preferred a more united Europe, but the ones leading the EU have failed to put into place systems that would have united the EU, hence we have it now at risk of falling to bits as a failed project.

    The UK though played a particularly unusual role, as most UK governments never wanted to accept the obligations that came with the EU membership and continually tried to negotiate special rules for the UK and exemptions from obligations, thus enjoying special privileges.

    That was due to some in the UK having been more insular minded and eurosceptic all along, which has led to them influencing UK government policy, which has finally led to what we have now, the vote to leave.

    Cameron himself sent signals to eurosceptics, that they were right in part, so this only emboldened opponents to further EU membership and integration. He did this only recently by seeking further special and separate deals with the EU, which were given to him, as the rest of the EU leaders feared the decision of the UK to leave may materialise.

    Why not have Mr Farage's speeches under this topic, as they speak for themselves, and represent the concerns and thoughts that led people to vote as they did?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

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