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Speaker: A Disorderly Brexit

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  • Russell Brown, in reply to James Littlewood*,

    That image of reported racism tweets is chilling.

    It's from a Facebook album which is growing alarmingly large.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to daleaway,

    Reminds one uncomfortably of the slogan on the side of Winston Peter’s campaign bus : Send them a message. Well, the message was sent, and now the Brits have learned to be careful what they wish for.

    Which is why the “Ha ha, death throes of neoliberalism” response annoys me.

    The immediate result will be a changing of the guard in government, with the most horrible and illiberal of the Tories moving into positions of power. It’s very much “be careful what you wish for”.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe,

    Yeah - that one grinds my gears too.

    Just because neoliberalism is dying on its arse, it doesn't mean that the outcome will be some new sort of socialism - especially when nationalism is so powerful and toxic, and comes with it's own well practiced identity, language etc.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Hugh Wilson, in reply to BenWilson,

    I’d be amazed if a single referendum could really trigger such a large event. Surely even the Brits aren’t that daft? I mean we only changed the way we vote and it took two referendums to get there. This is a much, much more massive change

    Kenneth Rogoff has written that the referendum wasn't democracy but Russian roulette for republics, and raises the question of why there weren't more checks & balances in place given the significance of the vote.

    http://www.afr.com/opinion/brexit-was-legally-easier-than-a-couple-getting-a-divorce-20160626-gps0ys

    Melbourne • Since Feb 2013 • 164 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Attachment

    Wow. Buyers' remorse is pretty strong amongst Daily Mail readers at the moment.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton, in reply to BenWilson,

    She is staring down the barrel of the end of her kingdom, and surely has something to say about it.

    When she became Queen in 1952 she was monarch of many more countries than she is now. From memory, her attitude on Scottish independence and Australian republicanism in 1999 is the same as she had through decolonialisation at the beginning of her reign: that she is happy to serve as Queen in realms that want her to do so, but is perfectly respectful of those who do not. She could also become or remain Queen of Scotland like she is Queen of New Zealand and Australia. I don't think intervention is very likely.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton, in reply to Russell Brown,

    You have six posts under one story from a newspaper with a readership of 1.5 million and think this is evidence of buyer's remorse? I'll go with the poll reported with The Mirror: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-opinion-poll-reveals-majority-8283139

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Ah, there's more to that though, isn't there? Respecting the result and being happy with your choice are two different things. I know some Leave voters who aren't happy with the potential chaos but are willing to show optimism that there's a way out of it.

    Also, relying on UK polls after the last few complete messups is - unwise?

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Prudence,

    Yes. That the EU is not a democratic institution is a salient point not often made.

    Neither is the United Kingdom’s upper house and the hereditary monarch who is their head of state – a salient point that never gets made.

    And that the Remain faction was finaced by the big banks makes one question what their motive for remaining is. Well it’s fairly obvious.

    And, yet again, let’s have a little honesty about who was financing the Leave campaign shall we?

    The two largest donations, together worth more than £5m, were to Leave campaign groups backed by Arron Banks, the insurance millionaire and Ukip backer: Leave.EU and Grassroots Out. The official pro-Brexit organisation is Vote Leave.

    The largest individual donation was made by Peter Hargreaves, founder of the financial advisory firm Hargreaves Lansdowne, who gave £3.2m to Leave.EU. The second largest came from Better for the Country Ltd, which is owned by Mr Banks, and which donated £1.95m to the umbrella group Grassroots Out.

    Meanwhile, good luck to all those Leave voters looking for assurances that Prime Minister Boris is going to make sure those EU funding holes are going to be filled. I expect that 350m a week for the NHS that vanished hours after the polls closed with materialize first.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Sacha,

    EU realpolitik: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/the-eu-will-treat-britain-like-greece/

    I have real problems with this:

    A ban issued from Downing Street on Brexit preparations – lest it boost the leave campaign – meant Britain’s most senior officials were permitted to “think” about a Brexit, but not allowed to write anything down.

    That is an incredible failure of governance.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2930 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to BenWilson,

    Since there is a power vacuum, it might be a good time to ask the Queen what she thinks. If there was ever a time for a constitutional monarchy, it would be when the democratic system suddenly collapses.

    And she won’t, because The Queen has a grip on how a constitutional monarchy actually works.

    And disappointed as I am by the result, democracy has not collapsed in the UK. Last time I looked, Parliament still trumps a non-binding indicative opinion poll and England already has one queen. It doesn’t need millions of the House of Drama.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    Also, relying on UK polls after the last few complete messups is - unwise?

    Relying on the Mirror is unwise.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2930 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    Also, relying on UK polls after the last few complete messups is – unwise?

    They haven't really been complete mess-ups but to the extent they have been mess-ups it has been that they overestimate Guardian opinions and underestimate Daily Mail and Telegraph ones.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    Ah, there’s more to that though, isn’t there? Respecting the result and being happy with your choice are two different things.

    Yes. One would think that there are many Remain voters unwilling to go along with a fantasy petition too.

    One of the few laughs has been the revelation that the petition was actually started by one of the Leave campaigners hoping for a do-over when it seemed the result wasn't going to go their way.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    My parents both voted Leave. I asked them why yesterday, after they’d told me they were horrified at people implying they were racist or xenophobic – I did point out that not all the 52% were that, but the proportion that were felt that they had 52% of Britain supporting them now.

    Exactly. I know this is harsh, but when you went to the ballot box and voted with people who explicitly and unapologetically are racist and xenophobic as hell? Yeah, I don't think you should expect a lick of sympathy from the Polish and Muslim communities right now.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Let's not forget who was already calling for a second referendum if the vote went narrowly against them ... a certain Mr Nigel Farage of the "Leave" campaign.

    (FWIW I don't think there should be or will be a new vote - the negotiations have to play out. By the time they're done, the EU will probably be so sick of Britain's behaviour that they'll chuck them out anyway ...)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1324 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Or that we're still grouping people by the newspapers they read, perhaps.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Yes. One would think that there are many Remain voters unwilling to go along with a fantasy petition too.

    I'm one of them, just as I'm bemused by people who think Nicola Sturgeon is going to pass up her best shot at an independence do-over for Scot Brexit veto on grounds that are... well, dodgy as hell.

    I just don't know why more people aren't repeating this simple matter of fact: Parliament trumps a non-binding referendum. Why is nobody demanding a free vote in the Commons on Brexit?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    Just using shorthand.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    I've always stuck to the Jay & Lynn definition of UK Newspaper readerships...

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Just the facts...

    I’ll go with the poll reported with The Mirror: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-opinion-poll-reveals-majority-8283139

    oh the one with a sample of 1069 people and gleefully says

    In our exclusive poll, half (48%) of British adults say that they are happy with the result, with two in five (43%) saying they are unhappy with the outcome.

    so that's really 48% of all British adults is it?
    Hell no!
    Statistics eh?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7889 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Which is why the “Ha ha, death throes of neoliberalism” response annoys me.

    Well the UK has had three flavours of "social market" rule in the last 20 years: Blairite Labour, Tory/Liberal and Tory. None of those have been notably successful in addressing peoples needs (and the same thing has happened in the rest of the EU).

    Isn't it time for the Left to work something out? (well, electing Corbyn was a start. I hope he holds on, even if it means that most of the PLP get cast adrift - the story of the SDP indicates they would be MPs for the next three years at the most).

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Just using shorthand.

    There's trouble up at Pitman...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7889 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    An interesting process question - membership of the EU is implemented by the European Communities Act, which will have to be repealed.

    Does this have to be done before the UK gives notice to quit? And is the EU entitled to demand that, since the UK's constitution requires a vote of parliament, that such a vote take place?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Does this have to be done before the UK gives notice to quit? And is the EU entitled to demand that, since the UK’s constitution requires a vote of parliament, that such a vote take place?

    It's rather disappointing that no one seems to have thought about all this in advance ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

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