Random Play: Alt.Republic: The rolling mall
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Jacqui Dunn, in reply to
Or tuk-tuks. Pedal-powered, of course!
I used to live in Grove Rd, and every year around Christmas we'd be awake until the wee small hours as carloads of shoppers would park their cars outside our house, slamming doors to walk to the mall for the midnight sales, only to return hours later and repeat the process.
Avondale's noisy, but at least it's constant.
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Chair of the Auckland Council's Transport committee Mike Lee is not happy with either the process or the content of the consent decision.
What is clear about this is that the people of St Lukes – Mt Albert are the victim of a cynical political manoeuvre by the former Auckland City Council. Knowing the depth of public feeling against this development – in what was a marginal electorate – the politicians held this decision over until after the election – and even then the matter was so odious they passed on to the new Council.
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If the Commissioners recommendations are accepted – this will be New Zealand’s biggest shopping mall. A shopping mall which most planners would agree is in entirely located in the wrong place. St Lukes is where it is because of short-sighted decisions in the past – so why would we want to go and compound those mistakes.
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Is he likely to be listened to? Because that's the most encouraging, sensible, thing I've seen on this.
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He's definitely got a point about local consultation processes, although I disagree with nearly all of his other objections. His objections to the mall are objections to all malls. Certainly they draw people away from other retail centers. But that's mostly because they provide a better experience than those other centers for the people that choose the mall.
Traffic will be worse. There could be a lot better systems for entering and exiting the mall, probably traffic lights at more of the exits. But comparing to Puhoi-Wellford is silly - it's not a highway on which most people just want to keep a decent speed up so they can get to their destination, which is most likely not Puhoi or Wellsford, and can't choose a different route. But the increased traffic at St Lukes will be from people going to St Lukes, who will be resigned to taking some time to get into the place (or they will go elsewhere). Others will quickly work out that it's probably a good idea to go a different way. But, having said that, I still don't think it's that bad - I often use St Lukes Rd to get home, despite having many alternatives, the waits aren't really astonishing, they're just more than they used to be.
The main people this sucks for are locals* who were accustomed to a fantastically accessible suburb, nestled between a number of main roads and close to a motorway, with lots of on-street parking that they will probably lose during the Christmas period.
*Edit: Locals who don't use the mall, that is.
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Sacha, in reply to
His objections to the mall are objections to all malls.
True, but compared with other big ones like Sylvia Park and Albany the traffic issues will be exceptional and completely predictable. Albany also lacks established residential neighbourhoods right alongside, though I wonder what noise Sylvia Park's neighbours made during hearings?
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The main people this sucks for are locals*
*Edit: Locals who don't use the mall, that is.I am a local, I use the mall, and it still sucks. Is that allowed?
Apart from the traffic, which is one of those perennial, and never solvable, problems, what does a super mall actually contribute to the community and environment in which it sits?
This seemed apposite
Mega Malls and Suburban Sprawl: James Kunstler Argues that Poor Design Destroys Community
And this;
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BenWilson, in reply to
I am a local, I use the mall, and it still sucks. Is that allowed?
What I meant is that your calculation of overall suckiness has to subtract off the good of having a lot more retail available to you at an easy walk. If you don't use the mall, it's all sucky.
what does a super mall actually contribute to the community and environment in which it sits?
Not a great deal. But that's in the nature of most development. I don't get any benefit from an old-folks retirement village being built down the end of my street. It will add to the traffic, and will be a PITA during construction. But I don't oppose it on principle - ultimately a retirement village is a good thing for whoever wants to use it, probably old people whose families live within an easy drive from here. Same goes for a mall - it benefits a much wider community than just the St Lukes residents. I live two suburbs away but will use St Lukes because it has a lot of advantages.
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What I meant is that your calculation of overall suckiness has to subtract off the good of having a lot more retail available to you at an easy walk.
Maybe, but I'm still struggling to imagine what additional retail they could possibly add to enhance my existence, given that IAF my use of St Lukes has increasingly shifted to the shops opposite, which are getting harder to get into and out of as it is, and will be doubly so soon.
Oh, and while I believe I can count myself as local, I'm also just a bit far away to walk with shopping, so there's that. Or is walking the criteria?
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A shopping mall which most planners would agree is in entirely located in the wrong place. St Lukes is where it is because of short-sighted decisions in the past – so why would we want to go and compound those mistakes.
Much the same could be asked of Auckland City as a whole. Who'd want to put half the country on an squiggly isthmus? And even if you had to do that, why would you put the CBD on the skinniest part?
Probably best if we stop compounding the Auckland problem right now and start moving people to a place where a properly circular city can take shape. Christchurch (when it stops shaking), Palmerston North, Hastings or Hamilton are all much better places for urban development.
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Maybe, but I'm still struggling to imagine what additional retail they could possibly add to enhance my existence
Hopefully they might actually have a shop that sells music again. I'm not optimistic, but I don't really blame the mall for that.
Otherwise, I don't know. I got back a couple of weeks ago from Melbourne, where I visited Chadstone City, a super mall that dwarfs anything we've got anywhere in NZ. But it didn't really have anything that St Luke's lacks, that I wanted. However, I notice that I don't buy much from any other shops either, so I'm a poor example. People who are into fashion might love having twice as much selection. Some more bars and restaurants would be nice too, the plans for the extension suggest it will be 'outward facing' unlike now, with balconies and exterior shopping, so it could very well become a reasonable place to go eat/drink out, and open much later. Of course, that's only going to cause more bitterness for everyone living near.
given that IAF my use of St Lukes has increasingly shifted to the shops opposite, which are getting harder to get into and out of as it is, and will be doubly so soon.
I use those a lot too, and haven't noticed them being difficult. Damned convenient, in fact. What is the difficulty? You turn at the lights, and then into a carpark. Pedestrians can cross to it at the lights, which contain the usual feature of a button for pedestrians that stops all the traffic. They even have two sets of lights to choose from, depending whether they are coming from St Lukes mall or just walking down Morningside Drive. Exiting those shops is even easier, they get a free bypass from one set of lights.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Hopefully they might actually have a shop that sells music again. I'm not optimistic, but I don't really blame the mall for that.
One of the things that bugs me about the jams that can extend a kilometre back to the other side of the New North Road lights is that they make it hard for me to get to the St Luke's "Megacentre" across the road from the mall itself.
That precinct contains retail that I tend to have more frequent business at than any of the mall shops -- including JB HiFi for music. Although I do have a good little cycle route, through Rocket Park and the treeway, that does the job.
I also have a nice route to get to the Sandringham shops, via Gribblehurst Park, but that would be royally screwed when the mall extension takes place and Aroha Ave turns into a mall entrance. Man, I feel sorry for the people in those streets.
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It’s all relative, isn’t it? I used to commute 3 hours per day, 6 trains, to and from work in Tokyo. Never bothered me. But the other day I had to wait 2 whole minutes, 120 seconds of my life I’ll never get back, can you even imagine, while a park became available. *
Ok, point taken. But I still don’t want St Lukes to double in size.
*Punctuation limited by inability to edit on iPhone. Is it still just me?
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*Punctuation limited by inability to edit on iPhone. Is it still just me?
Some odd behaviour in iOS is being looked into. I can't select text to quote on the iPad, which does my head in ...
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BenWilson, in reply to
Yes, I think Aroha Ave residents will be most affected. But they will also get a quicker way into St Luke's.
I have experienced the jams you refer to, but they're not jammed. The traffic moves at a slow but steady pace, and even a kilometer from St Lukes still only takes 5 minutes, rather than the 1.5 that it could take if there was no traffic at all.
The last few days before Christmas is the exception to this. Then, everyone really is trying to cram into the mall itself, and they can't fit. Maximum suckiness for the local residents.
I think your bike routes will still be available. But you'll have to slow down for traffic. Aaargh!
But the other day I had to wait 2 whole minutes, 120 seconds of my life I’ll never get back, can you even imagine, while a park became available.
Heh, totally. It's easy to lose sight of the big picture. Even Harbour Bridge commutes are fairly mild by international standards.
My trip to Melbourne brought home just how light our traffic here really is, and how comparatively compact Auckland is as well.
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Ben, basically your argument is that the mall is easy cos you can drive there, they have lots of nice carparks and there aren't nasty "random obstacles" around the place.
It's not surprising that it is easy to get to in a car, placed as it is near a motorway and next to major arterial roads. At busy periods, these roads are pretty much at capacity. With the induced demand of a double-sized mall and an additional 2000 carparks (it takes a whole motorway lane an hour to move 2000 cars) , these roads will at capacity much more of the time and many of the surrounds will be overcapacity -- maybe that'll just encourage calls for a widening of the motorway there. All these extra cars will make it hard to improve public transport in the area -- how can you put a bus-lane in along St Lukes road if it always full of cars? And it is not a choice to drive, it is the design of the place being poorly connected by bus and rail (unlike any of the other malls in the region, including Manukau, New Lynn, Henderson, Sylvia Park etc).
Development is not necessarily crap --- intensification of the CBD or real town centres (as opposed to corporate owned monopolies) brings more people in, creates a cool vibe, encourages interesting bars, restaurants, cafes, arts institutions etc. It also allows for proper public space so that normal civic stuff can happen there -- protests, meetings, fairs, markets, hanging about and playing. They are more efficient, more varied A mall is a private space designed to be bland, non-threatening and basically single-purpose.
Sure, malls have a function, it can be handy to have all those shops in one place, under one roof. But put it in a place where people can easily access without a car and where people might want to be for some other reason than simply being at the mall. That's the point here, it is not just anti-mall hysteria or nimbyism, it is the fact that this locks the whole area into a really shitty cycle of shitty development.
And never heard of any cyclists killed in a mall? Huh, I bet no-one drivng there ever killed anyone either, or put anyone off cycling. Come to think of it, remarkably few cyclists are killed on motorways either. Stupid argument.
Try reading this excellent post at Auckland Transport blog that thoroughly catalogues the planning disaster that is St Lukes Mall.
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I can't select text to quote on the iPad, which does my head in ...
Probably same bug.
Might not help, but apparently Google Site has a similar problem, which they traced back to Safari for iPad/iPhone, rather than iOS.
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At the moment, I prefer St Lukes over Sylvia Park (I'm in Onehunga, and probably actually closer to Sylvia Park) because Sylvia Park is just too damn big - walking from one end to the other feels way too much like exercise.
St. Lukes became noticably less crowded when the Sylvia Park and Albany megamalls opened - I guess if it gets bigger, everywhere is going to be equally crap.
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3410,
I often use St Lukes Rd to get home, despite having many alternatives, the waits aren't really astonishing, they're just more than they used to be.
East-West, Ben, or West-East?
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Does anyone know if there is a topographic map with how this will look? And when is building expected to start / finish?
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
The only stuff I've seen like a topo map is artists' impressions.
As for building, they haven't got past the inevitable appeals to the Environment Court yet. Construction is at least three years away, probably more like five, and from what Westfield have said it'll be a staged project - doubtless starting with the extra carparks, just in time for Christmas of whatever year they start building. -
Does no one else question why and when people started seeing shopping as a hobby? It drives me MAD. And yes, I did mean to shout.
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Sam F, in reply to
Pedestrians can cross to it at the lights, which contain the usual feature of a button for pedestrians that stops all the traffic. They even have two sets of lights to choose from, depending whether they are coming from St Lukes mall or just walking down Morningside Drive.
Granted - although the crossing outside St Lukes is hardly pleasant - very small spaces for pedestrians in the middle, amidst quite heavy traffic going both ways.
One annoyance particular to going into the Supercentre (the shops across the road) is the very short right-turn arrow phase from St Lukes Road - which means cars end up just about racing across to make it into the Supercentre access road in time. Doesn't make for a nice environment somehow.
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I'm very glad that Wellington has no mall. the nearest ones being in fringe burbs like lower Hutt.
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Mark Cubey, in reply to
Karori has a mall, LOL.
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Does no one else question why and when people started seeing shopping as a hobby? It drives me MAD. And yes, I did mean to shout.
I'm trying to thing of what levels of gentle coaxing, strong discouragement, or physical restraint are appropriate with our three to indicate that mall shopping is not a hobby, or sport, and that there are more constructive ways to spend both their time, and our money.
What a party pooper dad I am! "2 dollar shop dad, come on!!!" "Ask you mum."
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