Legal Beagle: Voting in the Flag Referendum
152 Responses
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Andrew Geddis, in reply to
what’s the law regarding advertising?
No limit on spending on "referendum advertisements" - you just have to put your name and address on it. TV advertising also would be allowed, as no political parties or candidates are involved.
However, parties and MPs can't use their parliamentary funding to pay for such messages. And the Government won't spend money to promote a particular outcome (as opposed to the fact the referendum is on at all) - not because it can't, but rather because there's division within National on the matter and it would be plain wrong to do so. So any pro-change campaign would have to be funded out of private pockets.
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Alfie, in reply to
and this....http://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/the-flag-debate
That's an excellent visualisation which is most revealing in exposing how much manipulation is going on behind the scenes. Nice work Caleb Tutty.
I guess what surprises me most is that it's the Herald exposing this fraud. Ever since they accepted public money to run positive spin for the flag panel, I've looked suspiciously at every flag story they run. For me, the Herald's independence on this issue was severely compromised from that point forward.
Any news media which accepts money to blur the line between news and advertorial, however fleeting, risks losing its main asset -- credibility.
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Is the date set for the second referendum next year?
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
3 - 24 March.
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Gareth Ward, in reply to
Ta muchly. Interesting to see how much of the passion/interest continues to then...
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kw,
A quick link to a couple of posts by Lizzy Marvelly on her Villainesse blog (I'll just link to the first here, it will get to both, Why we should not change the flag and The pros and cons of spoiling your vote. They're thoughful and essentially polite - the strongest language might be a "foisted" and "let's do it properly", which compares favourably to many of the pro-flag pieces I've seen, particularly the propensity to categorise pro-current flag types as older, male, and either conservative or irrational lefty extremists.
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Phil Lyth, in reply to
The Electoral Commission also has a useful page on advertising rules, here.
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Does it seem tin-foil-hat-ish to point out how cynical and manipulative it was for the pro-Silver Fern govt to schedule the referendum for just three weeks after the (All Blacks favourited to win) Rugby World Cup final?
It was no accident, that's for sure.
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we also received 4 ballots, 2 for the kids who are overseas, and no time to forward the envelopes to them .... I presume we can't vote on their behalf under their instruction.
It seems suspicious to me that Key's prefered flag comes up first on the ballot .... (or are they randomised?) I guess the fix is in
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One thing that I thought was a good idea was that the flag referendum law explicity says that flying a flag is not an election advertisment
From a purely practical point of view during the second ballot requiring people to take down all the existing flags would have been a real problem
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Graeme Edgeler, in reply to
It seems suspicious to me that Key’s prefered flag comes up first on the ballot …. (or are they randomised?) I guess the fix is in
It was randomised.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
As much as red peak being added makes the whole process a farce. The entire process has been manipulated one way or another. The Electoral Commission getting all serious warning about spoilt papers being shared seems a tad late to me and as the Edge points out ,do it anyway.
Everything this Government does seems dependent on polls measuring the mood of National Supporters. Why would this be any different? What I find interesting, is the belief that the next thing they do will be genuine, which the public seem so very content to wait for. It just never happens. The arrogance displayed by Key and Carter in the House 2 weeks ago shows the disdain they have for due process or the understanding sorely missing from the day to day running of Parliament and any respect for that. With submissions left out and Christie having choice on the Panel with clear conflicts of interest, and that being ignored after consideration, is in itself a farce. This is an exercise of National's,with their usual manipulation of the truth.I have no doubt of that. John Key wants a new brand. It may as well be a sports logo. -
Paul Campbell, in reply to
By "randomised" I meant "are they different on every ballot?" the only two I've seen are the same
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SteveH, in reply to
Does it seem tin-foil-hat-ish to point out how cynical and manipulative it was for the pro-Silver Fern govt to schedule the referendum for just three weeks after the (All Blacks favourited to win) Rugby World Cup final?
It does seem quite tin-foil-hat-ish. For one thing we've been favourite at every RWC and only won 2 (before this one), and both of those at home. Most analyses had the ABs most likely to win but still below a 50% chance. "They" would have been taking a significant risk in trying to tap into post-RWC euphoria given that it was more likely to be post-RWC depression.
Secondly, the obvious candidate flag for such a plan would be the silver fern on a black blackground. That's the design that's actually associated with the ABs. So if your conspiracy theory is right then why wasn't that design one of the final four? Did "they" forget to manipulate the flag panel?
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chris, in reply to
It’s probably not without tactical consideration, though. If she’d not previously told people to spoil their ballot papers, it’d be harder to later say “See! All those people agree with the exact reasoning I expressed for spoiling their ballot papers!”
The thing I’m unclear of is will there be any records showing how many votes were intentionally spoiled or will those votes ultimately end up indistinguishable from genuinely fluffed votes on a list like this; classed as ‘Dual Votes’ or ‘No ground stated’ or something of this ilk?
In the likelihood of a significant enough number of spoiled votes I can envisage Key manipulating the situation by blaming the Electoral Commission for not clearly outlining the process or Labour for proposing an alternate referendum which muddied the waters for genuine hardworking New Zealanders trying to have their say.
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Graeme, I have marked KOF as I believe has Winston and a number of RSA members. Annette King said recently on Paul Henry that she was going invalidate her ballot. I would think a number of Labour Party members her heard her would do the same. That adds up to a lot of dicks.
I think you analogy is faulty, only a dick treats restaurant staff poorly. A reasonable complaint is a different matter. I cannot see why those counting the votes could care less if KOF is on the ballot. It does not make their work any harder.
It well send a message. Even though this voting method is different there would not be many accidently informal votes. It it can get up to over 5% it would send a good message to John Key who ignores CIR.
It is a peaceful and legitimate form of protest. Good on Winston for suggesting it.
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Presumably the vote counters are paid by the hour or are on a salary, so if the votes take longer to count because many are spoiled, they'll just get overtime or the process will take longer - they won't lose out.
(Do they use a scanning machine that counts correctly filled papers automatically, or is it an entirely manual process?)
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The order on my voting form is
Left most) blue/black silver fern
left) red peak
middle) apple eating elephant (aka hypnoflag)
right) black and white fern
right most) blue/red silver fern -
Graeme Edgeler, in reply to
I cannot see why those counting the votes could care less if KOF is on the ballot.
Thus, my words "A basic protest won’t bother them".
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But is it a good idea to rank everyone?
Yes.
You only need rank 4 flags - the 5th rank never comes into play.
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Phil Lyth, in reply to
By “randomised” I meant “are they different on every ballot?”
No. (This came up on Twitter y'day) What's being used is described as "pseudo-random" in the Local Electoral Regulations for Council elections.
The Electoral Commission drew lots - in front of a Judge - to determine a random order, and that order is being used on all voting papers.
@philiplyth
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Thus, my words “A basic protest won’t bother them”.
It is not meant to bother those counting but John Key and if enough invalidate their vote it wil embarrass him in Parliament.
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Jonathan King, in reply to
So if your conspiracy theory is right then why wasn’t that design one of the final four? Did “they” forget to manipulate the flag panel?
Silver ferns feature heavily, and Key's made it clear that his preferred design would feature one.
They didn't have control over who won the world cup, but they had complete control over the timing of the referendum. And three weeks after silver fern-featured world cup is absurdly close.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
ditto on order.
<edit>
and now I've read phil's post underneath to see why
doh! -
@mpledger
"You only need rank 4 flags – the 5th rank never comes into play."
Correct. That is because when the most successful losing (in this case) option is excluded, the votes given for that option will not transferred to the next preferences shown on them, because there is no need to do so - a winner has been found.
I'm perfectly happy to say, though, that I'm going to go the whole hog and put a 5 beside Red Peak, as my protest at that design being included in the ballot. (I'm doing that even though I know Graeme is right - it won't be seen as a protest). That inclusion was a slap in the face to the panel (who, I must also say, did a pretty ordinary job of coming up with some decent options for us to consider - which should all have been completely different).
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