Hard News by Russell Brown

Read Post

Hard News: Feminist as crazy old man

468 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 5 6 7 8 9 19 Newer→ Last

  • Danielle,

    educated women would make better wives and mothers

    Not according to this guy.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Gio - "A demonstration isn't democratic" - Bullshit on so many levels.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Care to name one or two, thinker friend?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    It's the humanity, as Russell told the tranny-basher. Ideologues lack the ability to see their opponents and targets as complete human beings. The Kulaks had to be eliminated, because they were the class enemy of the workers. The workers who disagree with the theory of Marxism-Leninism do not have valid opinions; they are suffering from false consciousness. Baby boys cannot be tolerated because they will grow into Men, the Enemy.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    You're describing ideological extremists, not people with ideologies. We all have 'em. Thinking you don't leads to all sorts of dangerous assumptions which go precisely in the direction of invalidating the ideas and ideals of others.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    A demonstration isn't democratic: the people on the street may well be a minority, but they say look, I believe in my cause more than you believe in the status quo, and I'm quite prepared to make your life as miserable as I can until you accept my demands.

    I don't think it's making life miserable for the status quo that leads to change. It's making it clear to the status quo how miserable you are, seeking change through empathy. If anything is served by radical demonstration, that is it. If it's about being a nuisance, of course the establishment is always in a better position to do that back. That's what they do.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    I don't think it's making life miserable for the status quo that leads to change. It's making it clear to the status quo how miserable you are, seeking change through empathy.

    So you think that the workers' movement victories were due to the establishment becoming suddenly more enlightened and benevolent? History suggests otherwise.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Ben, I feel like your argument could be boiled down to 'if you'd just ask more nicely...'

    I'd dispute that. I'm not even talking about what women should do. I'm talking about what men should do. I'm talking about that strange place held by male feminists, how it can work. If you don't accept that I'm a feminist because I just practice it in my own life rather than beat people over the head with it, then yeah, OK, you read it how you like. You're basically not the intended target of what I'm saying, although I'm perfectly open to whatever it is you think is bad about it. I just see it as another path, one that men can walk.

    Part of my difficulty in all of this is that I'm not surrounded or even in contact with any oppressed women. The extent of it is usually a bit of slackness about the house on the part of men, and some shit talk which they're usually too scared to actually say in front of the women. Does this mean that feminism is basically an irrelevance in my world? I don't think so, it's more like a given.

    BenWilson, it's worth remembering that your whole experience of being so involved in caring for your children has at least in part come about because of feminism. At its best, although feminism prioritises as better life for women, it not not meant to be better than men, just better than the lives women have now, and ideally, better for everyone. Y'know - the "patriarchy harms men too" thought.

    I know this. I learned feminism from my parents. It's my natural way of seeing things. Only if I'm allowed to be a feminist, rather than just a bourgeois white man who happens to not oppress anyone by some strange mysterious process of fate.

    As for rape, I just don't see it as a feminist issue. It's a human rights issue. Everyone has the right not to be raped. Sure, only men ever do it, but that is never going to change, no matter what prism we see the world through.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    So you think that the workers' movement victories were due to the establishment becoming suddenly more enlightened and benevolent?

    No, but I think the movement got traction because workers felt empathy for one another, and collectively they are a massive group, holding enormous power.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    No, but I think the movement got traction because workers felt empathy for one another,

    Well, yes, of course. You can't organise without a sense of belonging together and being able to articulate a common set of needs. It doesn't mean that the struggle itself is going to be peaceful though.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    You're describing ideological extremists, not people with ideologies.

    I am describing opinions which were quite popular in bourgeois-leftist circles in their time. The everyone-has-an-ideology argument can serve as a tool for dehumanising the opponent: you have an ideology, but that is because you are bourgeois/male/white, whatever. My dialectic (not an ideology at all, but the historically determined truth) has anticipated your opionions.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    If you don't accept that I'm a feminist because I just practice it in my own life rather than beat people over the head with it, then yeah, OK, you read it how you like.

    But we aren't talking about whether or not you're a feminist. I'm not into being the feminist-defining police. Is this based on previous discussions you've had with other feminists, not me?

    I'm not surrounded or even in contact with any oppressed women

    Is this like not knowing any rapists? Because statistically, you're likely to know a rapist. You just don't know who they are right now.

    As for rape, I just don't see it as a feminist issue... Sure, only men ever do it

    <double take> How do these two statements exist in the same paragraph?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Anyway, I'm not saying that radical action doesn't work. I'm just saying it's not the only thing that works. It also has the side effect of polarizing opinion so that any path down the middle is forced to one side or the other, you're either a friend or an enemy of feminism. Such a forceful action is sometime well justified when there is a massive inequity. When the inequity is a lot less, it can work backwards. I think the inequity is a lot less than it was, so radicalism just seems less and less sensible.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    But we aren't talking about whether or not you're a feminist.

    I don't know what you were talking about. You boiled me down to 6 words, by some process I don't care to speculate on.

    Is this like not knowing any rapists? Because statistically, you're likely to know a rapist. You just don't know who they are right now.

    Yeah, it's like that. I'm sure they're there, but I sure as hell can't see them. Depends on what is meant by 'knowing' though. I meant within the smallish circle of people I would regularly converse. In the larger pool there are plenty of people I know are oppressed, by some standards of the word. Certainly there are lots of chauvinists.

    > As for rape, I just don't see it as a feminist issue... Sure, only men ever do it

    <double take> How do these two statements exist in the same paragraph?

    By the obvious fact that whilst only men can do it, not only women can have it done to them.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Ben - Only men rape - Bullshit to that too.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    By the obvious fact that whilst only men can do it, not only women can have it done to them.

    So, it's not a feminist issue unless it concerns women and only women? Peculiar.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    You boiled me down to 6 words, by some process I don't care to speculate on.

    Sorry. There's no 'process': I'm just a succinct re-stater. As far as I can work out, you were talking about how to be a feminist lifestyle-wise without being too overtly feminist theory-wise, so as not to frighten the horses. Which I was saying is fine, but it only goes so far. And it only works if you're in a certain social position. It's so limited as to be meaningless.

    By the obvious fact that whilst only men can do it, not only women can have it done to them.

    Yes. But why is it so *often* women, and so *rarely* men? There's definitely feminist stuff there to unpack.

    ETA: And just thinking and Gio are right too, of course.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    But why is it so *often* women, and so *rarely* men?

    Except for readers in prison.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Except for readers in prison.

    Or any institution where women happen to have been removed in advance. Your point being?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    My point being that rape is not exclusively a feminist issue.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Nobody said it was *exclusively* a feminist issue.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    Here we go. Danielle said "There's definitely feminist stuff there to unpack." My point is that rape is not exclusively a feminist issue.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    In any case, the rape of men happens in environments were women are present. It is not that "women happen to have been removed in advance." Men do not rape men because they are starved of women to rape. They rape men for the same reason that men rape women: to inflict pain and humiliation on their victim.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • Ben.Shirmer,

    i agree with that. sexual violence concernes everyone and can not exclusively be executed by men.

    Welly • Since Nov 2009 • 46 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    It took me about three years to get to grips with the idea of Race being a total social construct.

    Sexuality and gender roles falls into the same basket.

    So it was only my conditioning that held me back from breastfeeding our children?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22849 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 5 6 7 8 9 19 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.