Up Front: Say When
522 Responses
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Sacha, in reply to
When Cher and Dawn French were on a chat show together, 90% of the attention and questions were to the skinny, plasticised and ever youthful Cher, even though Dawn is much wittier.
Wit doesn't come into what is only a celebrity chat show. Cher is just more of a celebrity.
Norton has always shown the same favouritism to any stars in his eyes, particularly gay icons. Did you see him gushing over Bette Midler?
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The examples people are using for women who age – almost all are actresses. Their faces – whether plain or beautiful – are famous, recognisable and ther aging is followed with avid, unnatural attention. Anything else they do is ultimately irrelevant.
The great – and famously ugly – writer George Eliot captivated and atrracted many men – Henry James was one, and he wrote
"Behold me literally in love with this great horse-faced bluestocking,” Henry James wrote of Eliot. “I don’t know in what the charm lies, but it is thoroughly potent. But in this vast ugliness resides a most powerful beauty."
so a bad set of features is not impossible to transcend.
Actress and co-inventer of spread spectrum radio technology (used in communications and defence) Hedy Lamarr (who for a time was considered the most beautiful woman in the world) once said
"Any girl can be glamorous,. All she has to do is stand still and look stupid.”
That’s very true for girls, but it looks terrible when grown women do it.. (See my post on The Kepi).
To my eyes Helen Mirren has the same regard (or look that comes out of the eyes) as Joan Crawford – it’s a bit cold and a bit crazy. That may not be true of Mirren’s actual character, but it’s what I see in her eyes when I look at her photos or see her in an interview. She may actually be terrifically fun, kind and interesting, but she invariably looks bored and a bit angry to me – and no matter how nice the hair or unlined the face – is not appealing.
I think Jane Goodall (at 73 in this clip) has a regard of lively intelligence, humour, kindness and courage. She looks much, much more beautiful (to me anyway) than Helen Mirren. And unlike all the other examples on this list, was never known for her appearance, nor is she obsessed with it now.
Goodall is seen here at TED talking about the schools project she leads – (my sister Shirley runs the one in Nepal) Jane Goodall is wearing the kind of frumpy clothes that allow you to go from sleeping on a plane to climbing a tree – and obviously not bothering with her hair or makeup for this presentation. In this clip she is 73 but I think she looks substantially younger than Mirren does at 63. Especially when she give the chimpanzee greeting….
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Jackie Clark, in reply to
It was Bette Midler. Hello?
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Sacha, in reply to
I am not an Elton John fan :)
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ooohhhh loving the TOFO idea... need some drinking and swearing sometime soon methinks ;)
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
Jane Goodall? What a tramp!
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Should society change their attitudes about fat? Absolutely, they must.( And here is where I may diverge from your own experience, and all of this is based on my own observations of not all young women of size, but certainly a great number.) But they is we. If we, who are fat, do not get to that place, deep deep down (and I am not talking about you here, at all. I am not assuming anything about you. ) where there is even a tiny weeny molecule of not liking ourselves, then I would suggest our power to change society becomes diminished. All of us have insecurities, of course we do. About all sorts of things. But to buy into society’s views of us is absolutely not okay.
And here's the rub - I wonder how many of us (sometimes) fat people (and I'm definitely not making assumptions about you Jackie - you seem a remarkably chilled out lady from your posts, but you may be a complete stress bunny in person!) - are fat because we are unhappy, rather than unhappy because we are fat. I am at my fattest when I am unhappy, rather than suddenly realising I am fat and being thrown into a pit of despair. If I was fat when I was happy, I guess it wouldn't be any kind of issue for me, and therefore also not the business of society.
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One of the most attractive big (fat, large, weighty - whatever!) women I ever saw regularly was an aerobic instructor, when I used to go (before I got shin splints and had to stop that sort of exercise). She was a happy and extremely fit person. I think feeling healthy and fit can make all the difference. If you're blobbed out on the sofa, feeling like shit, not getting any fresh air; change of scenery; circulatory and mental stimulus, you'll be unhappy. No doubt about it.
Well, not in my mind anyway :)
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Hello, I Am Fat
Seems appropriate. -
Jacqui Dunn, in reply to
That woman doesn't look fat to me. Well-covered; ample; Rubenesque.....
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
That woman doesn't look fat to me. Well-covered; ample; Rubenesque.....
She does weigh 263 pounds.
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dyan campbell, in reply to
Jane Goodall? What a tramp!
God Craig, I totally agree... she was always consorting with those chimps when her heart belonged to Tarzan...
Tarzan's primitivist philosophy was absorbed by countless fans, amongst whom was Jane Goodall, who describes the Tarzan series as having a major influence on her childhood. She states that she felt she would be a much better spouse for Tarzan than his fictional wife, Jane, and that when she first began to live among and study the chimpanzees she was fulfilling her childhood dream of living among the great apes just as Tarzan did
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Jacqui Dunn, in reply to
She does weigh 263 pounds.
Heavy bones!
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
I'm kind of in love with Jane Goodall - sense of humour and great taste in men. :)
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Islander, in reply to
Jacqui D - damn! That's been my explanation for years!*
And dyan, Craig R - Jane Goodall has been my exemplar of a keen & insightful scientist, and all-round good human being for decades: I think she is wonderful, not least in her campaigning for captive chimpanzees...
*A lot of people of Polynesian descent do have bones that are up to 30% heavier than most other human groups. Very handy, especially if you fall over cliffs or off sundecks - you break but you dont shatter-
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Danielle, in reply to
Heavy bones!
I read this the other day, and I wasn't looking at her... bones. :)
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Jackie Clark, in reply to
Of course, some people do eat more/drink more/smoke more when they're unhappy, Tamsin. But there is no real correlation between body size and unhappiness. If someone's unhappy, they're unhappy. They can name why they are unhappy, but in my experience, when they attribute their unhappiness to the fat content of their body? Usually, that's just a very convenient thing to blame, and very often not the real issue. I'm not fat because I was unhappy. I'm fat because once upon a time, I had a fantastic time eating all sorts of fantastic food. Now, my body is changing shape because I'm fit and strong. Doesn't change my happiness or unhappiness. Once again, in my experience, Tamsin, fat has become a very convenient thing to blame for a myriad of problems.
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But there is no real correlation between body size and unhappiness.
Jacqui, I think that you would have a hard time backing that up - think of the things people do to their bodies when they are unhappy - binging/purging/self-harm of any type has a DIRECT correlation to mental health and well-being.
when they attribute their unhappiness to the fat content of their body? Usually, that's just a very convenient thing to blame, and very often not the real issue
Um, that's what I said. Being fat is something you do to yourself (at times) because you are unhappy. I'm sure you had a fantastic time getting fat as you say above - but I would suggest that many people who eat for comfort or restrict their eating because of issues of control/unhappiness/whatever had a much less than fantastic time getting there. I would further suggest that your experience may be the exception rather than the rule. But hey, I could be wrong and all those miserable people out there who are fat are only unhappy because they allow the perceptions of society at large depress them...
Once again, in my experience, Tamsin, fat has become a very convenient thing to blame for a myriad of problems.
Once again, we are in agreement. Fat is very often a symptom of the deeper problem. Where we do seem to disagree is on whether or not being fat is something to celebrate. Being fat is just - being fat.
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Jacqui Dunn, in reply to
I think you replied to Jackie not me, right? I didn't actually say what you've quoted. However, it's worth my pointing out again that being unhappy, (or shall we say depressed ?) whether it's due to fatness or is just coincidental, is often made worse by sitting around unhappily, doing nothing much.
I'm not underestimating the nasty long-term effects of depression in any form as it was something that happened to me, quite without my realizing it, and by the time I did , it took a couple of years at least for me to get back to normal.
Having been incapacitated by an injury last year, I became seriously unfit. A paunch; flabby, weak muscles....unpleasant and not how I wanted to be. I'm now actively working on getting rid of a few excess kilos which has a two-fold benefit - I feel better, fitter, and happier.
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Jacqui Dunn, in reply to
damn! That's been my explanation for years!
Actually, I was only half-joking! Bones grow (and diminish). They're living things that can become depleted through many causes, one of which is poor diet, but fish and veggies and an outdoor lifestyle should grow good, big, strong, heavy bones.
Weight-resistance training adds to bone strength too.
Makes me a bit sad when I hear of poor old people breaking bones. I found it bad enough to break my ankle - gave me quite a turn realizing that perhaps my bones weren't as strong as they once had been, but it's a few years since I went to the gym. Time to go back, I suspect. (Notice I don't include myself in the "p. o. p." ?? :) )
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
I would further suggest that your experience may be the exception rather than the rule. But hey, I could be wrong and all those miserable people out there who are fat are only unhappy because they allow the perceptions of society at large depress them...
Or because they have other reasons to be miserable; or (and here's a kicker) they're not in fact miserable at all.
I'm a little troubled in your moving from 'some people have bad eating habits due to unhappiness which lead to obesity' to 'most people, etc'. Most people in fact get fat in the normal course of being alive: we get older, our jobs get more sedentary, we have less time to prepare food or have to skip meals therefore resort to constant snacks, we give birth to children, and then there are those of us who are predisposed because of their body type... in fact getting fat over time is the norm. And no, it's not good for your health, but then so are a lot of other things that aren't regarded as immoral - such as drinking to excess, which is actually encouraged.
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I belong to the Race of the Squat, which has only been exacerbated by having a kid, and I've never been happier in my life. Suck it, angst.
(This has been your daily Personal Anecdata Post Which Doesn't Prove Anything Much.)
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recordari, in reply to
Personal Anecdata Post Which Doesn’t Prove Anything Much.
PAP W’D PAM.
For some reason I thought of Pam Ayres.
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Just catching up, but this from one of the comments on Boganette's blog has been sticking in my mind and really fucking annoying me:
You've come a way recognizing some of the intricate problems our society presents for socialization of women. It's called the madonna/whore dichotomy - men want their women sexy, but not TOO sexy, and there really is no balance a woman can achieve because the goal posts are forever shifting.
Critique the media and society by all means -- but could you not insist on informing me what I "want"?
Could you possibly do me the credit of allowing that I might actually see women as fellow human beings? People I can be friends with and talk to and learn from? That I might actually be able to find a woman -- or, lord forbid, a picture of a woman -- attractive without descending into the kind of miserable dichotomy you seem to believe defines my intellectual and emotional scope?
Grrrr.
Thank you.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
Critique the media and society by all means -- but could you not insist on informing me what I "want"?
I haven't read the comment in question, but I'm pretty sure it's not about "you" Russell, and I think as a broader sociological term it has a certain far from undocumented applicability. At least where I'm from.
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