Up Front by Emma Hart

Thank you Emma!

Was the pink toilet thing in response to some kind of problems? Or is it really the apparent problem of imaginary trans* people doing something somehow near cis people.

I have to admit my first reaction was that with fewer women than men at the cricket and the same number of toilets for each the queue for the womens might actually be shorter than the mens. But if they're under-supplying the womens toilets that's just stupid. I'm mildly surprised it hasn't turned into the usual "womens and anyones" toilets, the way so many university drinking event toilets did. That queue of women behind the urinals leading to the stalls sticks in my memory.

I have to admit my first reaction was that with fewer women than men at the cricket and the same number of toilets for each the queue for the womens might actually be shorter than the mens.

My rough estimate from the side of the ground we were on was that there were three times as many green toilets as pink.

I've no idea what the motivation behind suddenly doing this this summer, or whose idea it was. I've asked but had no response.

Meanwhile absolutely nothing is done about the handful of fuckwits in the crowd whose behaviour would get them ejected from any pub.

My experience of the public toilets at work and in other places is that men tend to piss on the seat and floor more than women. That's why women like to use women only toilets - they're cleaner.

I wonder if this is driven by the portaloo company? They have spotted a way to rent out more portaloos by gender segregating them, possibly driven by women like Susan (who should definitely not look at the toilet walls or probably ceilings either). Viz, there's some demand from end users, a marketing niche for the supplier, and in between is the cricket ground.

They had boys and girls portaloos at a gig I went to recently, and the boys side had urinals - presumably a combination of blokes wanting to wave their willies and an improved extraction rate for recently drunk beer.

The nicest toilets are the ones in the truck they had at Newtown festival.

I remember once a woman complaining that she had to walk past the male toilets to get to the female toilets in a public building (i.e. turning down the corridor, the male toilets were first, the female a few steps further on). If - and I'm not saying it is - her opinion is representative of the wider female population, then I'm not sure most females would be interested in sharing a toilet with men, let alone wiping the seat after them...

Personally I'm all for it and your argument makes perfect sense to me. How many people have two unisex toilets in their home? We don't have them on planes.

Perhaps in your 15-toilet hypothetical, you do this:
1 male-only toilet (for men who don't want to / can't share)
1 female-only toilet (for women who don't want to / can't share)
13 unisex toilets (for people who don't care and want optimal access and minimise the time away from the cricket).

Whenever this topic comes up online you usually get a few people who clean the toilets in bars or schools who start state that women's toilets are often the worst.

eg:

had a friend who worked in a bar, he said the womens washroom was always worse than the mens, used tampons stuck to walls and ceilings, ass paper all over the place....men would piss on the toilet paper rolls, seats and floor on purpose, but he said the girls side was ALWAYS worse.

I worked as a cleaner ("maintenance") at a mcdonalds and I always tell people how the female toilets were always much dirtier. They had the same amount of shit and piss events as the males but with the occasional added bonus of menstrual blood . I could never work out how the blood got to some of the places ( splotches on walls , floors , under rim etc) so I have since decided that sometimes females must stand in odd places while removing tampons and that sometimes engorged tampons are difficult to control.

It might be just an american thing but apparently the toilets seats always have piss on them because women "hover" because the toilet seats always have piss on them because...

the same amount of shit and piss events as the males but with the occasional added bonus of menstrual blood

Believe it or not, women bleed.

Just BTW, there's no law stating men can't piss while sitting down.

The public toilets in the National Library's Wellington building are not gender-specific. Seems to work fine.

Does anyone else remember the Ladies’ at the Academy cinema in Chch? Vase of fresh flowers, picture on the wall. Extremely civilised. Toilet facilities don’t have to be only utilitarian.
Post-quake, some community portaloos got similar treatment. Locals kept them clean and fresh, and some with a jar of flowers in the corner or children’s pictures on the wall.

East-Chch people I think are the least likely to be fussy about gender segregation. Something other than a hole in the ground you dig yourself? Total win.

The public toilets in the National Library's Wellington building are not gender-specific. Seems to work fine.

As do the public toilets in the new Bus Exchange here. I have never found them all covered in anything. Nor have I ever been aware of the gender identity of the person who used them before me.

Believe it or not, women bleed.

Some women bleed.

Believe it or not, women bleed.

Some women bleed.

Fair enough. I hate that menstruation is so shameful.

I'm very proud of my son's high school (Wellington High School) for being the first in NZ to have the option of unisex toilets. They got a fair bit of crap from Family First about it too.
People seem to manage the unisex toilets on planes without too much drama. And in tramping huts, and in increasing numbers of public places.

As far as I can tell both men and women make a mess in toilets. At home we clean up after ourselves, unless we want disharmony.

Elsewhere we rely on someone paid to clean up after we have for some unknown reason decided to spray the walls floor and seat with body fluids ... or solids (how?, just how?). If the toilets are dirty it's because someone doesn't want to pay enough to get them cleaned regularly.

Most homes have gender neutral toilets, the idea that a home would have segregation is nuts so why do we have segregation anywhere else?

The only reason for separating genders is if you can have men use a urinal, preferably one with a large target because some men find it hard to aim ... or maybe like a firehose they can't control the force ... or maybe the barrel is too short ... or maybe they should just learn to look where they're aiming.

Or alternatively we could get over ourselves and just have completely gender neutral toilets because frankly seeing another gender do their ablutions is not going to scar you for life and maybe we could all do with some reality about our bodies and the various things that bodies do.

I’ve no idea what Family First’s position on it is

It probably involves years of practice and incredible flexibility.

Just BTW, there's no law stating men can't piss while sitting down.

No written law. Fortunately, when you're in a cubicle no one can really tell whether you're there for 1&2 or just 1. So Sitzpinklers get away with it. Disclaimer: Manchmal, Ich bin ein Sitzpinkler

The only reason for separating genders is if you can have men use a urinal

Agreed. And urinals are quite a lot more space, time and water efficient, so they're useful to have. But when it's portaloos I can't see much reason to segregate, although the idea of a smaller number of segregated ones available isn't a terrible idea...probably only really need women's ones. ie a system of having a large number of unisex toilets and a much smaller number of women's ones makes sense.

what should a man do when three year old daughter needs to use the toilet

My limited experience with children is that most of them completely understand "pick a toilet, and I'll come in with you if you want me to". Very few children are willing to argue at any length in that situation :) It's a few special adults that boggle a bit. Also, once you have the cubical door shut it takes a very bold gender police to force it open so they can explain their problems to you.

In my experience, following the gender police back to the shop they work in and changing the baby there works. In several different ways at the same time.

We have a large and increasing number of non-gendered public toilets. And multilingual signs that say "parent and children change room" or some other description. Which seem to be used occasionally even by Muslim men with children as well, to my pleasant surprise (I live in an area with a lot of Muslims and it's rare to see one doing that level of hands-on childcare).

My reaction precisely. But pissing on the seats still happens in gender segregated toilets ( *and* I am 'pissed off' about it). Sought out the pissing and surely no arguments against can remain.

But pissing on the seats

urinating is hard

urinating is hard

We should have a pissing contest.

Maybe we could talk about toileting in boats some time?

I'm up for that as long as I can count my housebus (complete with macerating marine toilet) as a land yacht.

I highly recommend that folks experience the genderless long drops at DOC Camps.

Very good reasons opt for sitting to pee rather than standing and looking down....

But pissing on the seats

urinating is hard

"Nobody knew urinating could be so complicated" - Donald J. Drumpf

As funny as the toilet is

It’s a peculiar thing to observe, because the last place I’d expect to get clocked is in a bathroom. Unless there’s an ambusher lurking to try and “grab ‘em by the pussy”. Personally I’m more concerned about this type of grabbin’ occurring in the meetings between a JP/MP/Lawyer and transgender person as required by the DIA to verify a NZ passport gender change.

There is something amusing I guess when one considers that separate bathroom advocates are calling for women to share facilities with dudes like these.

Meanwhile in the past week AUT has made its bathrooms all gender and Canterbury schools have announced plans for gender-neutral toilets and uniforms.

It’s disappointing but expected that this bathroom use issue seems to have been imported pretty much wholesale from the states, as if the development of the excretory systems in transgender people is a recent turn of events.

It's difficult to ignore that we are living in a time of increased fundamentalism in all corners of society.

It’s an odd thing to do because it takes more work. You have to estimate how many women are going to attend, in order to work out how many pink (not even kidding) loos you’re going to need.

I guess it's a diversion, but this clip from Upstart Crow made me laugh (from 10m:59s). :)