Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Does My Mortgage Look Like a Slag in This?

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  • Sarah Horth,

    Megan

    Did you buy shoes?

    Yes! I felt so much better after going shopping :). I almost bought the coach black and white platforms (I may go back) but instead got some very soft black ballet slipper flats. I have problems buying flats so was very excited to have found some that fitted and that I could walk in. Also got some giant kick-arse sunglasses :) If you come to Seattle you must go to Nordstrom Rack - too many nice things.

    Angus, I guess I don't classify 2 as harassment (can be annoying but not harassing) unless it is done in a rude way, they will not go stop if asked, or involves unwanted touching.

    Seattle • Since Aug 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Sarah Horth,

    oops that should read

    they will not stop if asked...

    Seattle • Since Aug 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    Have I the right...

    I reckon that any attractive female who goes to a singles bar with the intention of having a good time with friends is going to be subjected to a high number of unwanted sexual advances of varying unsophistication (irrespective of whatever she wears) possibly causing her to become harassed.

    emancipation vs mens anticipation
    empathetic reaction vs pathetic mens actions

    ask yourself this question...
    sing along now...

    and back off if the answer's NO


    yrs hexagonally
    Harris Tweed
    The very fabric of society...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Michie,

    Does harassment need to be protracted? Isn't once enough?

    Auckward • Since Nov 2006 • 614 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Does harassment need to be protracted?

    Not if Ms. Knee is introduced to Mr. Crotch quickly enough.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Kim_Wright,

    I agree with Tim; Angus both of your very narrow definitions of harassment imply that actions perceived as harassment must be protracted.

    The "first attempt" by a man (or woman) to impose themselves upon an uninterested party can be totally intimidatory/annoying/offensive enough to constitute harassment. How can you not get that?

    Wellington • Since May 2009 • 57 posts Report Reply

  • JoJo,

    Angus, I don't know if you realise this, but no one is saying that a guy walking up to a woman in a bar and initiating a conversation is harassment.

    I'm saying that if the woman does not show interest, or declines to engage in the conversation in some way ("Sorry, I'm with my mates", for example), and the guy keeps trying to talk to her - well, that's harassment to me. Even if the guy is talking politely and isn't just grabbing her tits - it's still annoying and rude.

    And it can feel threatening - I've left pubs because a guy will not leave us alone. And why should I have to leave, when my behaviour wasn't at fault. Oh yeah - the same reason I can't wear a low-cut top...

    Wellington • Since Jul 2008 • 95 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    I reckon that any attractive female who goes to a singles bar with the intention of having a good time with friends is going to be subjected to a high number of unwanted sexual advances of varying unsophistication (irrespective of whatever she wears) possibly causing her to become harassed.

    And I don't know how many times we have to tell you. It has nothing to do with how attractive the woman is. Or where she is or what she is doing. An UNWANTED sexual advance is an UNWANTED sexual advance.

    And no, we won't shut up and stop complaining about it because it is the way of the world. I might be naive, but I am still of the belief that if there is something wrong with the world if is incumbent on me to complain as damn loudly as I can about it.

    A guy talking to me in a bar (if we're going to continue talking about that scenario) is not harassment. Offering to buy me a drink isn't harassment. And frankly, if 'several' men in a row offered to by me a drink in a night, I'd consider that a success.

    What is unacceptable, what we are complaining about, is assuming that buying me a drink entitles you to invade my personal space. To ask me to "show [you] my tits". To follow me when I go to the bathroom. To tell your friends that because I have (politely or otherwise) refused you, that I must be frigid.

    You seem to think we are complaining about "feeling harassed", and not actually being harassed . We're not. We're saying that being out in public does not give you the right to assume we are available to you, in any way, unless we indicate we are.

    I don't know how to put it anymore simply than that.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Regarding pub creeps: Consider reporting them to the bartender or -manager. These places generally don't want to see good customers scared away by bad - they're on your side - , so will likely issue a warning and keep an eye on the situation too. I guess once in a blue moon that could actually inflame the situation (if so, the cops) but it's an option and in my experience, it works.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    You seem to think we are complaining about "feeling harassed", and not actually being harassed . We're not. We're saying that being out in public does not give you the right to assume we are available to you, in any way,**unless we indicate we are**.

    I didn't expect to have to tell you this. It has nothing to do with how attractive the man is. Or where he is or what he is doing. An UNWANTED sexual advance is an UNWANTED sexual advance*.

    Obviously I do not think your indication of availability constitutes harassment, because the offer is made with good intentions for mutual benefit. Personally I am of the opinion that it is just an unwanted sexual advance you are making that is rebuffed and you can move on to other topics or exit the conversation, but apparently some people disagree.

    * Men do have standards, lower generally.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • stephen walker,

    Obviously I do not think your indication of availability constitutes harassment

    i do not like name calling, but you seem to have moved well over the line of really boring troll-like comments.

    nagano • Since Nov 2006 • 645 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    * Men do have standards, lower generally.

    I really, really, really hate 'men are like this, women are like that' John Gray-ism.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    I really, really, really hate 'men are like this, women are like that' John Gray-ism.

    Aw c'mon Danielle. Men juswannafuck, and women want flowers and puppies and romance.

    Obviously I do not think your indication of availability constitutes harassment, because the offer is made with good intentions for mutual benefit.

    No, harassment constitutes quite the opposite. The harasser is not doing it for the benefit of the other, they're doing it for the benefit of themselves.

    In rare cases they are completely deluded, but most of the time they're at least slightly aware that the person they are harassing has indicated they are not comfortable, and have chosen to persist anyway.

    it is just an unwanted sexual advance you are making that is rebuffed and you can move on to other topics or exit the conversation, but apparently some people disagree.

    And that, again, is the point. The person being harassed is usually not able to exit that situation, at least not in a manner that doesn't cause them discomfort, or even the risk of harm.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Aw c'mon Danielle. Men juswannafuck, and women want flowers and puppies and romance.

    I like puppies *and* booty. Quick! Someone give me a gender test!

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    Quick! Someone give me a gender test!

    Danielle! You're in the wrong thread!!

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    * Men do have standards, lower generally.

    Oh. Fuck. Off. Next you;re going to be telling me the hormones makes 'em do it.

    I like puppies *and* booty. Quick! Someone give me a gender test!

    Done... as soon as my mind's eye stops burning with the most disturbing mental snapshot ever.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • JackElder,

    ... puppies *and* booty. ...

    Done... as soon as my mind's eye stops burning with the most disturbing mental snapshot ever.

    Well, I wouldn't say that it's that disturbing an image (SFW).

    Wellington • Since Mar 2008 • 708 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Well, I wouldn't say that it's that disturbing an image (SFW).

    Applause.

    Staying with disturbing mental images for a moment, no prize for guessing what these taste like (SFW0

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Dinah Dunavan,

    Yay for vege booty. Sadness that I only got to consume 2 packets (shared worse luck) on our recent trip. Does anyone in NZ stock it?

    Dunedin • Since Jun 2008 • 186 posts Report Reply

  • bronwyn,

    Angus, in reply to your

    My position is that a person can be harassed in 2 ways:
    - because they are subject to protracted and unwanted demand from one person or group acting in concert, like you have been.
    - because they are subject to protracted and unwanted demand by several people or groups acting independently, even though the harassing parties have no intention to harass.

    What would you classify the following, which happened to me about two hours ago, as?

    I am walking back to work. Quietly, keeping to myself as people do when they are walking round town of an afternoon. Two men pass me in the street. I have never seen them before. They start saying "Hey mamma, wanna ride on me etc." complete with hand gestures. This is not protracted. It is definitely unwanted.

    (I told them, not especially politely and with my own hand gestures, to fuck off).

    tamaki makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 86 posts Report Reply

  • Cecelia,

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2824374/Flashing-women-to-be-a-traffic-stopper

    Maybe the boys will respect us more if we become the norm:)

    Hibiscus Coast • Since Apr 2008 • 559 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    The may if you play in a rawk band. I'm not even going to apologise for that tenuous threadjack. Pixies playing here - downright awesome.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Just like Emma, of course.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Good to see you guys didn't add another 30 pages while I away in Queenstown for a week (conference, not the gay ski week :)).

    Megan - flats are just fine, after all you want to be able to focus on the food not your sore toes :). And it did sound mouth-wateringly good.

    Throughout this thread I've been constantly reminded of some of the leadership training courses we had which emphasised that as far as the law is concerned harassment is in the eye of the harassee. It really does not matter what the other person thinks is normal if the person feels harassed then they are.

    It doesn't matter how well intentioned I might be if I offend a girl with a comment then I have done wrong, not her. There is nothing she can wear or say or do that really justifies me offending her.

    Which is an interesting problem for me sometimes because there are times when I notice a women's clothing as being very nice and would like to compliment her without ANY other agenda.

    As for Queenstown, my darling found some cool beads and resisted buying boots. We ate out a few times and Botswana Butchery was damn nice food but fairly hopeless service. But everywhere in Queenstown is $10 a dish too expensive :(.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    But everywhere in Queenstown is $10 a dish too expensive :(.

    There is a French restaurant in Queenstown that does (or did) a cauliflower soup that still lingers in my memory as the most perfectly seasoned, exquisite thing I have ever tasted.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

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