But everywhere in Queenstown is $10 a dish too expensive :(.

There is a French restaurant in Queenstown that does (or did) a cauliflower soup that still lingers in my memory as the most perfectly seasoned, exquisite thing I have ever tasted.

Megan – flats are just fine, after all you want to be able to focus on the food not your sore toes :). And it…

Maybe the boys will respect us more if we become the norm:)

My position is that a person can be harassed in 2 ways:
– because they are subject to protracted and unwanted demand from one person or group acting in concert, like you have been.
– because they are subject to protracted and unwanted demand by…

Well, I wouldn't say that it's that disturbing an image (SFW).

Applause.

Staying with disturbing mental images for a moment, no prize for guessing what these taste like (SFW0

... puppies *and* booty. ...

Done... as soon as my mind's eye stops burning with the most disturbing mental snapshot ever.

Well, I wouldn't say that it's that disturbing an image (SFW).

* Men do have standards, lower generally.

Oh. Fuck. Off. Next you;re going to be telling me the hormones makes 'em do it.

I like puppies *and* booty. Quick! Someone give me a gender test!

Done... as soon as my mind's eye stops burning with the most disturbing mental snapshot…

Quick! Someone give me a gender test!

Danielle! You're in the wrong thread!!

Aw c'mon Danielle. Men juswannafuck, and women want flowers and puppies and romance.

I like puppies *and* booty. Quick! Someone give me a gender test!

I really, really, really hate 'men are like this, women are like that' John Gray-ism.

Aw c'mon Danielle. Men juswannafuck, and women want flowers and puppies and romance.

Obviously I do not think your indication of availability constitutes harassment, because the offer is made with good intentions for mutual benefit.…

* Men do have standards, lower generally.

I really, really, really hate 'men are like this, women are like that' John Gray-ism.

Obviously I do not think your indication of availability constitutes harassment

i do not like name calling, but you seem to have moved well over the line of really boring troll-like comments.

You seem to think we are complaining about "feeling harassed", and not actually being harassed . We're not. We're saying that being out in public does not give you the right to assume we are available to you, in any way,unless we indicate we are.

I didn't expect to have…

I reckon that any attractive female who goes to a singles bar with the intention of having a good time with friends is going to be subjected to a high number of unwanted sexual advances of varying unsophistication (irrespective of whatever she wears) possibly causing her to become harassed.

And…

I'm saying that if the woman does not show interest, or declines to engage in the conversation in some way…

The "first attempt" by a man (or woman) to impose themselves upon an uninterested party can be totally intimidatory/annoying/offensive enough to constitute harassment. How can you not get…

Does harassment need to be protracted?

Not if Ms. Knee is introduced to Mr. Crotch quickly enough.

I reckon that any attractive female who goes to a singles bar with the intention of having a good time with friends is going to be subjected to a high number of unwanted sexual advances of varying unsophistication (irrespective of whatever she wears) possibly causing her…

they will not stop if asked...

Did you buy shoes?

Yes! I felt so much better after going shopping :). I almost bought the coach black and white platforms (I may go back) but instead got some very soft black ballet slipper flats. I have problems buying flats so was very excited to have found…

If you are still reading this, yes. Its harassment, it is a shit thing to happen. No denying.

I didn't reply, because I am arguing against the "all harasment requires is a harasser" meme. And any personal recollection I might dwell on to justify my argument would portray how…

Me: I've shagged sheep, and I've shagged english men, and I know which one I prefer

I can only paraphrase Dorothy Parker's reaction to hearing that Calvin Coolidge had died: "How could you tell?"

Him: Oy Kiwi, if you aren't a dyke, you must be a sheepshagger.

Me: I've shagged sheep, and I've shagged english men, and I know which one I prefer

I guess you had to be there.......

I wish one of these dumbfuck assholes would say something original once in while, srsly.

Which was basically my response.

Something along the lines of "Oh, I love men. I just hate fuckwits who seem to think I don't have a brain of my own and are frightened when I…

And afterwards, I was always called a dyke. ....

"no wonder you are still single when you hate men so much"

I wish one of these dumbfuck assholes would say something original once in while, srsly.

The shoes: plain black flats, I'm afraid. We can't be fabulous all the time.

The food: Divine. Smoked fish cakes, venison Osso Bucco, and Churros con chocolate, with a Palliser reisling and fabulous service and good company. Not as good as last time I went, but there was a…

But a bit of a derail, neh? Maybe a topic for another day?

Up to a point, Lord Copper. Just as my being a yappy little dog (tm – Emma Hart) about how those 'pro-family' folks don't seem to give a shit about the damage their enthusiasm for legislative fag-bashing…

So I cracked my load of glasses over his head.

Hopefully that fired some "not be an arsehole" synapses Jackie. Good on ya.

And afterwards, I was always called a dyke. Of course.

Oh god yeah – the classic dyke reposte.

Because of course if you didn't respond in the "proper" manner for a girl* when they did something oh-so-gentlemanly like grab your tits or your ass or shove their hand up your…

I guess I'll have to explain to him that Merediths is no longer. [first]

And Cuisine only gave them 4 and 1/2 stars! Mr Meredith's food is still amazing even if Cuisine doesn't think it's the best.

However it was great to see O'Connell St Bistro get 5 stars and…

Why not just say pro- or anti-abortion and be rhetorically honest about it?

Yep, also why can't we just say "hey that's none of my business because I aint pregnant and until she asks me, I have no intention of trying to influence her decision. Leave her alone already, she's…

Is this sort of behaviour worse in New Zealand?

In the UK where I (mainly) lived until my 30s, it was just as bad, if not worse. I remember being amazed that here in NZ if you walked past a building-site you wouldn't be automatically accosted by workmen yelling obscenities…

I think that is a great thought experiment to give men the smallest inkling of what it is like to try to enjoy your own sexual energy/power (because you can and you should and there is no reason to hide your light under a bushel) without men becoming grabby and…

Why not just say pro- or anti-abortion and be rhetorically honest about it?

Mostly because you can be in favour of women being treated as autonomous moral agents and thus pro-choice, but at the same time know that for yourself, you would not choose abortion. But I agree – both…

And isn't it time we gave up the pro-life label altogether, it really is senseless.

Meh... I get sick of both 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' because they both strike me as fundamentally dishonest euphemisms designed to get a positive response. After all, who the hell is against "choice" and "life" --…

A wee ways upthread it looked like flirting and harassment were being discussed as different points on the same continuum of sexual behaviour...

Wow, Isabel, I'm really sorry if my contribution to that discussion gave you that impression. I was try to think about it like this.

I've got a…

I tried ever so hard to keep it light and 'oh well I disagree, but we can agree education is important' (our views on what kind of education of course were completely different) but she wasn't going to leave it alone.…

I need to toughen up as this is the US.

I feel for you, as Prince (and later Chaka Khan) sang. I generally just try to avoid those topics of conversation to keep the peace (but that's because I'm usually related by birth or marriage to the wackaloon and need…

I came home last night after being trapped at a dinner party by a pro-lifer/anti abortion woman.

Pity you're not still in New Zealand, I believe you could have at least claimed some ACC for that.

As a 13 year old I loved that song, and knew it was well, not right.

For 30 years I'd forgotten about it, and then downloaded it recently.

It's way out there, and don't they dress like their lyrics?

But shit those boys could sing.

Seemed right to drag that up.

Right you are.

Seemed right to drag that up.

(Happy birthday, btw.)

I think it's safe to say what used to be regarded as instinctive or…

Lucy. That was a simple piece of information in answer to the question about overseas. Baffled again how you put "I think that's the analogue you're going for. " into it.

Context, dude. Context. If you weren't trying to make a point about wearing "appropriate" clothing in certain places, what…

a woman's virtue being like a castle

Rapunzel, let down your hair...
Ah.. erm... well it is Friday.
;-)

Right, folks. It is my weekend, and in about an hour, I am about to sit down to lunch at the Restaurant of the Year.

And here I thought my man had taken me to the restaurant of the year ! I guess I'll have to explain to him that…

To me flirting has the main aim (whether it ends in…

Ah, I suck at this Internet thing. Is this thing even on? Where do you speak into? Hello?

I think that's the analogue you're going for

Gio, just upgrade to Web 2.0

I've heard it runs on digitals.

Ah, I suck at this Internet thing. Is this thing even on? Where do you speak into? Hello?

That's because your tubes are blocked. It happens to me all the time. See that blue cord that leads into the back of your computer? You need to unplug it and let…

to try to enjoy your own sexual energy/power (because you can and you should and there is no reason to hide your light under a bushel)

Kowhai? Yay!

Someone wanting some item of yours, something that in certain circumstances you'd be happy to share with certain people, and acting aggressively to get it when you've said no. In this case, that item happens to be your personal space and/or your body.

When…

Lucy: A long time ago drink drivers were excused by the court because they were drunk at the time???? It is true that agressive angry people are much worse when there is alcohol or some drugs involved. Not an excuse.

Did I say it was? I was trying to suggest…

animalistic penis-brains

back on page 1 – thanks Danielle!

Now – off to Villa Maria estate for a wine in the sun. One of the very few good things about working near AKL airport

are there places or societies around the world where you're less likely to be harassed if you're a woman or where you're safer?

The Muslim countries I've experienced have varied widely. But when The Law says you have to be covered, on the street, head to toe... or potentially be…

Did you get it back?

Yeah. APB still firmly attached, like an angry limpet.
Lucky, 'cos a trip to Benin for a magical replacement sounds... fraught.
[We were denied visas to Benin in '88 on the grounds that New Zealand was a racist country. But in next-door Lome there was…

are there places or societies around the world where you're less likely to be harassed if you're a woman or where you're safer?

I'm going to go way back to something Tess said on page one:

I only realised how wonderful and safe our university social group was as I…

Rich. Do you see that it is not my intent to connect the dress message as an excuse to "attack" women, or men? I never said that.

Ian: yes, totally. I didn't think I said anything that suggested that you did, though?

I was cautiously inching my way towards the thesis that perhaps in New Zealand it's a product of the drinking culture but, yes, I think that's something destined for the rubbish bin.

Possibly this behaviour is expressed more in NZ when people are drunk, because of the inhibition-lowering qualities of…

At the simplist my proposition is that the clothes we wear, the manners you show, the way you speak do send signals to those you meet. I am baffled as to why this causes angry response.

But the way some men are interpreting the signal is: 'I am available. Please…

Is this sort of behaviour worse in New Zealand? I suspect it's (sadly) universal. But for the better-travelled members of PA, are there places or societies around the world where you're less likely to be harassed if you're a woman or where you're safer?

Just curious.

guys often can't really comprehend the experience

A few years ago I started noticing certain shared behavioural traits in (mostly) young women, out and about in public spaces on weekend evenings (fri-sat), usually by themselves, usually in transit from A to B. I'm not talking late-late, more like 6-7 in…

Did you get it back?

Is anyone else singing King Missile's 'Detachable Penis'?

So, a bar is a place to be okay to grope and harass and bother a woman after she has made it clear that she's not interested?

No.

It is a bar, so lets assume there is more than one guy. She makes it clear to the first guy, 2nd…

More like, I believe that boorish behaviour by male and female patrons in a bar is mostly in the pursuit of happiness and in the wish to provide some happiness to another. If into this context someone enters (and like 3410 portrays it is…

teh interhosen

The internet is pants.

roflnui

And the interhosen always gets its interpanties in a twist.

Using the toilets later, someone else grabbed my crotch and ran off snickering.

Did you get it back?

by people who have no intention to harrass her.

Then why don't they leave her the fuck alone?

]]> Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:49:50 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-does-my-mortgage-look-like-a-slag/?p=128818#post128818 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-does-my-mortgage-look-like-a-slag/?p=128818#post128818

But the unwanted sexual attention was not ok.

I had the same experience with a friend, repeatedly, in front of his partner and others, and at no point I felt that if I had been of the correct sexual orientation it would have been in any way less unplesant. And…

If into this context someone enters who holds boorish sexual advances to be harrassing she will be harrassed, by people who have no intention to harrass her.

So, a bar is a place to be okay to grope and harass and bother a woman after she has made it clear…

I am a centrist swing voter and like politics. Political sites where arguments are conducted are left (maximising the good) or right (maximising freedom). And being a centrist they both sound sort of good.

For example, I am tempted to infer that you believe the unhappiness of harrassed female…

guys often can't really comprehend the experience

I certainly agree. I do think you can explain it in terms that anyone can relate to, however, even those who can't get into that headspace.

Someone wanting some item of yours, something that in certain circumstances you'd be happy to share with…

guys often can't really comprehend the experience

And thank you 3410. Totally agree.

However your standard is a good deal north of where I think society should draw the line – that we do not harm or hinder or coerce, beyond that go for it. It is…

we do not harm or hinder or coerce

Isn't that exactly what we've been saying? I don't understand what you think 'harassment' actually is.

I…

And as a general point of netiquette, I think that whenever you find yourself arguing against a particular 'group' about what happens to that group, when it's a group you don't belong to, it might be time to inhale for a minute and just listen.

I inhaled 27 pages ago!…

You seem to think that no one would ever fuck if someone wasn't acting like a douchebag to someone else. Believe me: I have bonked some people, and they didn't have to harass me to get me to do it. That's what 'active consent' means.

No. I think that even…

Since I don't like the idea of being on a leash I'm going to work on training

It is my weekend, and in about an hour, I am about to sit down to lunch at the Restaurant of the Year.

Two things are required before you are allowed to post again.

1 A description if not a picture of the shoes you wear to this fine establishment.…

I wish there weren't blokes like that, but I have to acknowledge that there are.

because in a lot of cases the man in question is a mere animal

Isn't that just a copout*, though?

*Whenever I use the word 'copout', I think of the film Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice, in which people call each other copouts in a particularly late-60s sort…

teh interhosen

The internet is pants.

roflnui

a woman's virtue being like a castle

Hey baby, can I maraud your castle...

Stephen – don't threaten people.

Very seriously, how can you tell that's a threat? Can you use your threat-detecting method in other contexts to detect other things concealed in speech, do you think?

And secondly,doesn't my right to free expression protect me? Why doesn't it trump your right not to…

The only place where I'm ever that witty, is in my imagination.

Or on the stairway?

I am fairly certain that my dining companion isn't going to assume my low cut dress isn't an invitation of any kind, but rest assured, I…

Me: “Well, not right now. Right now, I just want to read my book.”

Awesome. The only place where I'm ever that witty, is in my imagination.

May I humbly recommend an enrolment at Charm School?

Just assume varying degrees of euphemism, dependent on the situation.

Take me to your lieder ..
..as someone once remarked to Schubert

Well, there's no need to make a song
and dance about it... ;- )

yrs lyrically
Bert Shoe
decomposer

ps : if anyone is looking for any particular old classical music on vinyl, let me…

Stephen – don't threaten people.

Oh, he's not threatening you. I mean, it only matters if he feels like he's threatening you. Whether or not you feel threatened is irrelevant. I mean, you might just be over-anxious, or a prude.

On a lighter note, perhaps this, which is only tangentially-related,…

Stephen – don't threaten people.

Here's the difference, Angus.

The first time you say, "You wanna fuck?"

May I humbly recommend an enrolment at Charm School?

I contend that a significant number of people in bars at 3 am are by and large trying to create happiness through enacting scenario 1. And that their efforts might unfortunately result in scenario 2.

And so perhaps being 'persistent and aggressive' might not be their best option, then? Because…

Would you feel equally as happy with people's right to express themselves, if they happen to have their hands all over your date?

Unfortunately though the right not to be offended does not and should not exist, because it is trumped thoroughly by the right
of people to freely express themselves.

I humbly suggest you take a read of the [[http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/|Universal Declaration…

1. People of all sexes and orientations meet in public places and engage in a persistant, aggressive pursuit of consensual sex and then they fuck and they are happy. Hooray for people fucking?

2. __People of all sexes and orientations meet…

This is bad. BOOO for harassment!

Okay, the PAS imprint needs to get on to children's books and we've found our author.

Take me to your Leder...

Take me to your lieder ..
..as someone once remarked to Schubert

Men get out.

sniff bye then

skulks off into a corner to think fondly of thought provoking discussion that I am the wrong sex to be involved in...

I beg your pardon?

I said, "Bingo!"

Angus, I'm thinking about a range of behaviour, much of which goes beyond mere expression.

However – Even if it doesn't: if the situation sucks, then by the same token people have the right to complain about it, tell people off if they're…

teh interhosen

Take me to your Leder...

...he said, in short leather pants

We're not threatening you. We're just exercising our right to free expression. Incidentally, have I expressed what a lovely house you have? It is my belief, and I don't mind sharing it with…

Unfortunately though the right not to be offended does not and should not exist, because it is trumped thoroughly by the right of people to freely express themselves.

Oh goody. There's a few things I need to get off my chest.

I'll be round later to follow you around in…

Unfortunately though the right not to be offended does not and should not exist, because it is trumped thoroughly by the right of people to freely express themselves.

I beg your pardon?

teh interhosen

The internet is pants.

. That's the internet equivalent of throwing your toys out of your cot.

A classic case of packing a sad. Not something you come across every day on teh interhosen. If it weren't so downright wrongheaded it might have a certain old-world charm.

On my second bingo card now. Who's with me?

I ran out of cards and pencils on Andrew H's second comment.

Ian, that's not what Emma's asking you to do. "Inhale for a minute and just listen" does not equal get out.

C'mon now, are you telling me you've never run a quick single? I don't believe that for a minute.

her, er, drawbridge was ready to be lowered

What with this image and Craig's woodchipper one from earlier, I think I'm going to have some freaky, freaky dreams tonight.

Women only. Men get out.

On my second bingo card now. Who's with me?

Ian, that's so the *exact opposite* of what Emma was saying that I'm finding it difficult to work out what it is you're actually reading.

That is the message that I get. If you don't agree with a majority position then just listen. Women only. Men get out. If that is netiquette then so ends discussion. Sad.

Oh, come on. That's the internet equivalent of throwing your toys out of your cot. "Teh womenz, they…

It does seem intuitive. But that doesn't make it true, and it isn't. If everyone could accept that, I think we'd be a lot further on – on this thread, and as a society.

I wonder if we're still stuck with the late medieval European mindset, all those wonderful instructional…

If you don't agree with a majority position then just listen. Women only. Men get out. If that is netiquette then so ends discussion. Sad.

Ian, that's not what Emma's asking you to do. "Inhale for a minute and just listen" does not equal get out.

and gave them the death stare.

As my man says to others on occassion "she's got the look." I must admit I don't need it much. :)

I been thinking about that, I wish I 'd been on that ferry.

Ironically enough they were on the same ferry with me on the way back. Having had a lovely weekend with some awesome women (and a fortifying glass of wine) I wasn't in the mood for the bullshit,…

Actually I find it very bravest of commetators to be those who would like to assume a lady's virtue to be unquestionable. How Victorian-era stupid is that?

Not even a teeny tiny little bit. Just being in the wrong place would be enough to ruin a Victorian lady's virtue (I…

I wish I 'd been on that ferry.

Me too.

We have probably all had experiences like this, where we are a target for harassment simply for having left the house. This isn't a "wrong place, wrong time" thing. It's anyplace, anytime, no matter what we are wearing or doing.…

I've been thinking about this overnight, and here's an example that might demonstrate what we're talking about.

I been thnking about that, I wish I 'd been on that ferry.

"If every man stopped the first time a woman said "no", the world would be a much less exciting place to live".

If every man who made a prime cock of himself in public just cut it out, I mightn't regard your average pub/nightclub as the social equivalent of feeding…

So excuse me

There is no need to excuse you – well said.

The right to offend is vastly more important than the right to not be offended.

Firstly, offering a threat by stalkerish persistence doesn't fall under a "right to offend" in my book.

Secondly, while some people who insist on their right to offend turn out to be Rosa Parks or…

If every man stopped the first time a woman said "no", the world would be a much less exciting place to live".

Head. Desk.

I had blocked that out, but now the memory is back. Sigh.

There was one in the UK who notoriously gave a rapist a light sentance because the person he attacked was wearing a miniskirt.

Oh, you don't have to look offshore for that. Remember this?

"If every man stopped the first time a woman said "no", the world would be a…

Prude is a word I used, because I do not have the Craig-ist gift for enunciating sentiment

Use your words, Angus. And please don't put me in the frame for this hail of bullets.... I don't get around in tank tops and hot pants not because I'm particularly 'virtuous' but…

We used to have an appeals judge in Italy who thought that wearing jeans on a woman's part was a form of provocation.

There was one in the UK who notoriously gave a rapist a light sentance because the person he attacked was wearing a miniskirt.

He's not dead,…

(I even checked to see if you have a Nordstrom in Seattle...you do)

Or for something slightly more practical, and budget conscious these are as cute as all hell.

I can't be bothered to go on, but really would that be fine?

Well, it would be if Angus was wearing a low-cut top. ;)

Hope I'm not one of the three because of my views on nails and heels.

No! :) I do struggle with some of those 'beauty' things myself, because I know impossibly Photoshopped people (for example) are bound to make some less media-savvy young women feel like shit. It's difficult and…

You are out on a hot date, that you have planned for a month. Finally the night is here, you are cosied up in a corner booth in a bar, sipping your drinks,…

You know, I totally get why feminist consciousness-raising was such a big deal in the early 70s. I'm finding it frustrating enough having women's experiences minimised, denied and ignored by about three people in this thread

Hope I'm not one of the three because of my views on nails and…

those who would like to assume a lady's virtue to be unquestionable

Oh. ALSO. I might have happily fucked an entire provincial rugby team the night before, but if I turn you down the next night, tough shit. 'Virtue' has nothing to do with it.

I've been thinking about this overnight, and here's an example that might demonstrate what we're talking about.

A couple of years ago, I caught the ferry from Wellington to Picton. Before 6am, I was sitting in the ferry terminal, minding my own business. I was wearing jeans,…

Can I give you an example of something that is not so unusual – it is not 'hindering' nor 'harming' but it lacks respect and is a pain in the arse.

Being in a bar on a girls’ night (sorry can’t remember what we were wearing, but something fabulous…

If you are asked by the 5th or 6th or 17th guy, are you being harrassed? Is he harrassing? I'd suggest that you are being harrassed and he is not harrassing.

Answering no to "you wanna fuck?" just means you don't wanna fuck, this doesn't neccessarily exhaust the avenues…

Clothing has jack-all to do with it.

I agree.

The first time you say, "You wanna fuck?" that's a question, and it's an okay one to ask between two or more people involved in a conversation. It's even just fine to make it clear that you admire someone's bodily attributes. It might be distasteful -…

Is it pleasant to exist in an early-1960s mindset? I imagine so.

Prude is a word I used, because I do not have the Craig-ist gift for enunciating sentiment. Does evoke the 60s sitcom, for sure.

I have the mindset of a liberal. The right to offend is vastly more…

I'm thinking more late Victorian – fits better with the Charge-of-the-Light-Brigade-esque stupidity/bravery wire-crossing going on.

Actually I find it very bravest of commetators to be those who would like to assume a lady's virtue to be unquestionable. How Victorian-era stupid is that?

All it takes for rape is a rapist,…

block your ears! mixed messages!

* tv, music videos, films, manga, video games, books, magazines, radio, newspapers, billboards,…

The message has to be that women have a right to be safe, first and foremost.

if I had the skills, I'd remake that offending ad – the girl getting dragged down the alley, after the pub, etc – in fact, make a few interpretations of suchlike ads and bombard…

I have struggled to understand the vehemence of the arguments here but now have an inkling although I am a non-drinking,…

Do I have the right to pull the tiger's tail... turn into she asked for it???

You're ascribing agency to the woman. You're suggesting that she is responsible for provoking the man. Pulling the tail.

What is more, you're taking away agency from the man and the choices he has…