Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Does My Mortgage Look Like a Slag in This?

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  • Sarah Horth,

    Or some of those god damn sexy shoes that I am thinking about breaking into my piggy bank to buy *sigh*

    Seattle • Since Aug 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    On the other hand you have put forward great arguments about the irrelevance of what a woman wears. In Megan's case the old guys might have been scared off if she was strutting her stuff - she might have looked more confident in her sexuality and guys like that are cowards, I think.

    That's exactly it, because these things aren't just about appreciating a woman's body, or wanting to get laid or whatever. They are all wrapped up in power plays and dominance and so forth.

    I do struggle with some of those 'beauty' things myself, because I know impossibly Photoshopped people (for example) are bound to make some less media-savvy young women feel like shit. It's difficult and complex stuff.

    Yeah, I stopped buying magazines a couple of years ago, and have not regretted it since. It was a great realisation to come to that while I'm never going to look like the women in those magazines, those women don't actually look like that either.

    Doesn't stop me peering in the window of every shoe shop I see though.

    It must have taken a lot of courage to keep talking about this stuff, over and over, until people really *heard* you. Thanks, second wave.

    Word.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    Sarah, how about these

    (I even checked to see if you have a Nordstrom in Seattle...you do)

    Or for something slightly more practical, and budget conscious these are as cute as all hell.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Sarah Horth,

    Be still my beating heart...beautiful! Nordstrom is from Seattle! I usually spend about 2 hours at Nordstrom Rack (the outlet store) trying on shoes when I get there. I have held off until now this trip, but can see this is not going to last

    Seattle • Since Aug 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    We used to have an appeals judge in Italy who thought that wearing jeans on a woman's part was a form of provocation.

    There was one in the UK who notoriously gave a rapist a light sentance because the person he attacked was wearing a miniskirt.

    He's not dead, unfortunately, But he is working as a tabloid columnist. 'nuff said.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Prude is a word I used, because I do not have the Craig-ist gift for enunciating sentiment

    Use your words, Angus. And please don't put me in the frame for this hail of bullets.... I don't get around in tank tops and hot pants not because I'm particularly 'virtuous' but because they're grotesquely unflattering to my body type. I'm not 18 any more and dealing with it nicely, thanks for asking.

    And I hope Danielle doesn't put this down on the Derailing for Dummies bingo card, but men also have to deal with similar crap. I'm in a place where I'm perfectly happy with my body and the person in it, but that doesn't mean that I don't note (and deplore) some of the seriously unrealistic 'body fascism" men have shoved down their throats every damn day. You are, after all, talking to a gay man with a partner in his mid 60's -- which is a great way to get a ring side view of the casual ageism, racism and body stereotyping that exists in quote unquote "gay culture" where the beau ideal is some hairless twink or muscle mary. I can laugh at it, others can't or don't

    <quote>

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    There was one in the UK who notoriously gave a rapist a light sentance because the person he attacked was wearing a miniskirt.

    Oh, you don't have to look offshore for that. Remember this?

    "If every man stopped the first time a woman said "no", the world would be a much less exciting place to live".

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    If every man stopped the first time a woman said "no", the world would be a much less exciting place to live".

    Head. Desk.

    I had blocked that out, but now the memory is back. Sigh.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    The right to offend is vastly more important than the right to not be offended.

    Firstly, offering a threat by stalkerish persistence doesn't fall under a "right to offend" in my book.

    Secondly, while some people who insist on their right to offend turn out to be Rosa Parks or Mahatma Gandhi, in my experiencing they're usually enormous tools.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    @Jackie

    So excuse me

    There is no need to excuse you - well said.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    "If every man stopped the first time a woman said "no", the world would be a much less exciting place to live".

    If every man who made a prime cock of himself in public just cut it out, I mightn't regard your average pub/nightclub as the social equivalent of feeding your genitals into a wood chipper.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    I've been thinking about this overnight, and here's an example that might demonstrate what we're talking about.

    I been thnking about that, I wish I 'd been on that ferry.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    And, Angus, I certainly do think there's room for a bit of good natured flirting in the world -- but that's a very very different beast from being an obnoxious creep.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • JoJo,

    I wish I 'd been on that ferry.

    Me too.

    We have probably all had experiences like this, where we are a target for harassment simply for having left the house. This isn't a "wrong place, wrong time" thing. It's anyplace, anytime, no matter what we are wearing or doing.

    And then, watching the news last night, to illustrate the kind of guests David Letterman has on his programme, TV3 chose to show clips of Paris Hilton, Barack Obama, and Britney Spears. Britney was even wearing a bikini. Grrrrrrr.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2008 • 95 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Actually I find it very bravest of commetators to be those who would like to assume a lady's virtue to be unquestionable. How Victorian-era stupid is that?

    Not even a teeny tiny little bit. Just being in the wrong place would be enough to ruin a Victorian lady's virtue (I say lady because this concept only applies to the upper and middle classes), she wouldn't have to actually do anything. Far from unquestionable, 'virtue' was a fragile concept and could be damaged through no fault of the woman's. Try reading Lady Windermere's Fan.

    It seems intuitive that if a young woman wears skimpy clothes as in the picture in the Listener that she will be more vulnerable to unwanted male attention.

    It does seem intuitive. But that doesn't make it true, and it isn't. If everyone could accept that, I think we'd be a lot further on - on this thread, and as a society.

    But in the absence of any 'inches of revealed cleavage vs incidences of sexual harassment' league table, it seems to me that the people with the firmest grasp on what happens to women depending on how they're dressed would be... women. And as a general point of netiquette, I think that whenever you find yourself arguing against a particular 'group' about what happens to that group, when it's a group you don't belong to, it might be time to inhale for a minute and just listen.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    I been thinking about that, I wish I 'd been on that ferry.

    Ironically enough they were on the same ferry with me on the way back. Having had a lovely weekend with some awesome women (and a fortifying glass of wine) I wasn't in the mood for the bullshit, and gave them the death stare. They at least had the grace to look embarrassed.

    And there was another man on the ferry who had heard what they were saying, and while I was drinking my coffee, twisted a paper napkin into a lily and handed it to me with a smile. Quite renewed my faith that there _are_ lovely men in the world. With whome, like Craig, I don't mind a good flirt.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Ian MacKay,

    Emma:"And as a general point of netiquette, I think that whenever you find yourself arguing against a particular 'group' about what happens to that group, when it's a group you don't belong to, it might be time to inhale for a minute and just listen."
    That is the message that I get. If you don't agree with a majority position then just listen. Women only. Men get out. If that is netiquette then so ends discussion. Sad.

    Bleheim • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    and gave them the death stare.

    As my man says to others on occassion "she's got the look." I must admit I don't need it much. :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Ian: your summary of the message is sufficiently inaccurate that it demonstrates the not getting it and failure to listen very well.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    If you don't agree with a majority position then just listen. Women only. Men get out. If that is netiquette then so ends discussion. Sad.

    Ian, that's not what Emma's asking you to do. "Inhale for a minute and just listen" does not equal get out.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    It does seem intuitive. But that doesn't make it true, and it isn't. If everyone could accept that, I think we'd be a lot further on - on this thread, and as a society.

    I wonder if we're still stuck with the late medieval European mindset, all those wonderful instructional books about a woman's virtue being like a castle, and men being like marauding hordes without, and any woman who would not look demure enough or express herself not curtly enough would be implicitly signalling that her, er, drawbridge was ready to be lowered, and the castle just asking to be stormed. How times haven't changed.

    Also, Romantic Comedy Behavior Gets Real Life Man Arrested.

    That is the message that I get. If you don't agree with a majority position then just listen. Women only. Men get out. If that is netiquette then so ends discussion. Sad.

    Whoa bloody nelly. Discussion is not the ultimate end, especially if it is predicated on substituting opinion for experience.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    That is the message that I get. If you don't agree with a majority position then just listen. Women only. Men get out. If that is netiquette then so ends discussion. Sad.

    Oh, come on. That's the internet equivalent of throwing your toys out of your cot. "Teh womenz, they hate me". There are men here, debating. But even if there weren't that wouldn't make it any more valid.

    I used caps last night "NEVER", because I couldn't think of a way to say never with that level of emphasis. I do apologise if you think I was shouting on you, I don't apologise for expressing the sentiment of course.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Hey Ian,
    When crossing the road, it helps to look left, then right. Y'knowwatimean? If you can give me a better way to get to the other side I am happy to listen.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Women only. Men get out.

    On my second bingo card now. Who's with me?

    Ian, that's so the *exact opposite* of what Emma was saying that I'm finding it difficult to work out what it is you're actually reading.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    her, er, drawbridge was ready to be lowered

    What with this image and Craig's woodchipper one from earlier, I think I'm going to have some freaky, freaky dreams tonight.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

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