"The Terrorism Files"

850 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 5 6 7 8 9 34 Newer→ Last

  • Neil Morrison,

    I was hoping we'd here from Shane Jones sometime.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Worik Stanton,

    " When I was a boy I said things that I would be very very ashamed to have quoted back to me now. Angry young people say stupid stupid things."

    Without picking on this particularly, this seems to be a common refrain.

    Let's just re-iterate here that this is not just somebody saying angry things. This is a few people regularly saying angry things with others of a like-mind, and then training in military maneouvres with live rounds and Molotov cocktails.

    So it is a bunch of angry young things, and they have a club....

    I am not saying there is nothing to worry about in the actions of armed people in the Uraweras. But we have very few facts. And what we do have could easily have been selected to make us come to the (in)correct conclusion. So let's suspend our condemnation, take a chill pill and be watchful.

    But we do have one fact. The police were willing to blockade a whole town, and terrorise the inhabitants indiscriminately, based on the words and actions of a few.

    Way to go to keep the peace.

    Taking my own advice (a chill pill) I am calmly keen to see what comes of Peter Williams' work on this issue!

    W

    Otepoti • Since Nov 2007 • 41 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    So let's suspend our condemnation...

    vs.

    But we do have one fact. The police were willing to blockade a whole town, and terrorise the inhabitants indiscriminately, based on the words and actions of a few.

    Do you plan on actually doing what you're suggesting?

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • dubmugga,

    <quote>troll. stop it.<quote>

    ...STFU with teh petty name calling and stay on point yeah ???

    how many of those quotes do you think can be attributed to the non maori arrested and have nothing to do with tuhoe activism and disenchantment ???

    what benefit does it serve and to whom, to highlight those quotes in particular from the hours of recorded material and reams of collected evidence ???

    ..i hate being played far a sucka

    the back of your mind • Since Nov 2006 • 257 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    The media only focus on one thing - stuff that creates controversy and emotion and therefore sells. hence the media must take a large proportion of the blame for the current circumstances.

    And no amount of backtracking and trying belatedly to support the "silent majority" by opposing the EFB nd releasing the evidence in the public interest can change that culpability. If the media had not been complicit by always reporting the fringe whackos with an axe to grind and telling every faction imaginable that they are hard done by then we wouldnt have gone so far down this Northern Ireland track. The Northern Island situation is a good analogy because it is an example of a wealthy country that had to go through 30 years of violence for no better reason than the poliktical elite stirred up a tiny minority of nutbars for their own political purpose.

    "but anyway I understand the majority of those arrested weren't maori"

    Yes. Generally what happens in terrorism is the political elite stir up jealously and resentment, often where it does not exist, for their own selfish political goals. Thereby they coopt a small fringe of mentally unstable people to do their dirty work for them. Nowhere is this more apparent than in "conservation"/"animal rights" field, where, for psychosocial reasons, it is easy to get recruits.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • Sonic,

    I have to say I am distinctly unimpressed.

    I'm also interested in what role police informers ( paid to infiltrate I assume) played in all of this. How many times did they instigate these conversations.

    "I think we should kill John Key"

    "I agree mate"

    Ok round them up.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 102 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I've really appreciated your consistent perspective on this Kyle, as much as I've been disappointed that many others on the activist left haven't been able to say: "if you were even contemplating violence, you have damaged our ideals and you are no part of us".

    Thanks Russell, it's been four weeks of a lot of personal thinking, and when I think I write, and your threads have been getting most of that.

    I understand a lot of where left activists are coming from right now. If this had happened in November 1995, after I'd been through a week of being at the CHOGM protests, I'd be scared that the police were doing something too. It's easy to get insulated and get into 'us vs them' mentality - both as activists, and as police.

    It was never easy, but I always had a unique perspective of the two sides, as my father was a cop. Broad statements about the police as an institution always annoyed me. For every neanderthal cop who has fond memories of the Springbok Tour, there's another one who's doing a really hard job well.

    There are times to go to the barricades, and if anyone has reason to do that in NZ, Tuhoe would be near the top of the list. Activism needs to be driven by ideals, but based in reality, and if they're taking guns there, it's not hard to figure out that they're only doing damage to their cause. They're not only going to piss off mainstream NZers, they're going to alienate a lot of people who previously had sympathy for them.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Sonic,

    here we go

    "During their investigations, police used sophisticated mobile phone eavesdropping technology and trained covert cameras on suspects' homes, a remote bush path and at vehicle tracks and camp training grounds.

    They traced new suspects and gained information via computer sites, phone, bank and power records, Trade Me user profiles, passports and birth certificates, <b>as well as from an informant.</b>

    Or this

    "On August 16 this year, police intercepted a conversation between two suspects in a car. They discussed Mr Bush and speculation that he could visit New Zealand - and talked of using a sniper's rifle."

    Who doesnt?

    (only kidding coppers!)

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 102 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    Shep,

    Got to disagree with you on the talk at gun clubs line. I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone at a range day or competition talk about shooting the Prime Minister or leader of the opposition, nor have I ever heard them talk about killing people to get used to the idea, or to plot to harm to the general population, or to talk of attacking various targets.

    And if anyone had said anything anywhere near that stupid, they would be reported to the Police, who would ask very serious questions about whether or not they should be allowed to possess a gun license.

    I respectfully suggest that maligning people based on what appears to be something of a stereotype is somewhat unhelpful.

    If the things we've read today is common BS talk in your circle, I'd try to keep better company....

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I'm also interested in what role police informers ( paid to infiltrate I assume) played in all of this. How many times did they instigate these conversations.

    I'm only guessing, but I can't imagine there were any paid informants infiltrating.

    If police got information from people who had been to the camps, I'd imagine it was someone who went to the camp thinking it was activist training and talking with sovereignty activsts, found out it was rather different than what they'd expected, and decided to talk to the police.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    Oh I'm glad they don't have sopphistocated mind reading equipment.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • Maureen Jansen,

    Has Pita Sharples spoken yet?

    What do others think of Shane Jones' analysis quoted above?

    Is he saying that Tame Iti is just a crim with no sincerely held ideology?

    Rotorua • Since Nov 2006 • 16 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison,

    I'm glad they don't have sopphistocated mind reading equipment.

    I don't think there were any sophistocated minds invloved.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Sonic,

    " can't imagine there were any paid informants"

    Well that is police standard practice all over the world. In any lefty campaign you always get some new guy who shows up prattling on about using violence etc.

    I had one who kept asking me "where are the real meetings, you know the innner core who are really organising things"

    COPPER.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 102 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    I know there are very serious issues here, and I do appreciate others taking the time to make long posts that inform and challenge, but shallow that I am, I can't help chortling away to myself ... "Boy, this must really piss off the Herald".

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1332 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    I think Shane Jones was implying that he was a pretender to leadership within Tuhoe without the necessary support to really be it.

    I don't generally agree with Shane on much, but he did strike something of a chord there. The ideology of Tame Iti does seem to be more about getting himself on TV, than working for the betterment of his people...

    Those who will suffer most from this will be the people around that area who will now be deemed to be a risk coming into election year so watch all their funding dry up, watch how industry will stay well away from the area, which won't do anything to fix the employment problem, and watch how Maori throughout NZ will be looked at sideways from now by other NZers and by other Maori.

    Thanks very much Tame Iti!! Thanks for thinking about the rest of us.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Worik Stanton,

    Finn said...

    "So let's suspend our condemnation..."

    vs.

    "But we do have one fact. The police were willing to blockade a whole town, and terrorise the inhabitants indiscriminately, based on the words and actions of a few."

    Do you plan on actually doing what you're suggesting?

    That was not a condemnation I made but a description of a fact. And Finn did not pay close enough attention to a following paragraph where I suggested waiting to see the results of Peter Williams' investigations/efforts.

    I thought long and hard before I used the verb "terrorise". But what else would you call a pre-dawn raid by fully armed, armoured and masked people? I regret using that term now, as it is pejorative. No matter how accurate.

    Still. It will be interesting to see if all of Peter Williams comments and accusations make it into court and we see some police heads on the block (if half of his accusations hold up) or not (if none do).

    W

    Otepoti • Since Nov 2007 • 41 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Then ensure Domestic aspect is included & strengthen Police role as domestic anti-terror agency - as opposed to SAS.

    Shep: The Police are the "domestic anti-terror agency". The Special Tactics Group exists precisely because the cops are the lead agency in responding to terrorist incidents. Calling in the SAS is a big deal, requires approval from the PM, and must be reported to Parliament at the earliest opportunity. They are the "Oh shit, it's all fucked and we cannot possibly deal with this ourselves" response, and since the STG train with the SAS it would have to be really bad for the incident controller to ask the SAS to be responded.
    The only time in NZ history that the SAS have been even alerted to respond for a domestic situation was Aramoana, but the Anti-Terrorist Group (precursor to the STG) brought the situation under control before an SAS response was necessary.

    For the people who are suggesting treason, do any of you actually understand what the "owing allegiance" requirement means? It is more than simply being a citizen, it is being someone who holds a special place in society - that place being as one who has sworn an oath of office. People in uniform swear oaths of allegiance (take a look at the Police Act for the wording of their oath).
    So treason is out, and would never have been an option. These are not members of the armed forces or the Police, they're civilians who do not owe allegiance to the Queen.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    Still. It will be interesting to see if all of Peter Williams comments and accusations make it into court and we see some police heads on the block (if half of his accusations hold up) or not (if none do).

    Like both extremes of the discussion to date, don't expect any reasoned or rational analysis from Peter Williams. He will be coming at this whole thing from a particular perspective, any making his clients look good, while making the police look bad will be paramount.

    Sad but true. And I'd hate for us to think that there was actually some neutral body making rational calls on this somewhere after all....

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Worik Stanton,

    I must hasten to add that I do not contend that possible brutish and illegal behaviour by some police, if proved, should be used to besmirch the reputations of all police.

    W

    Otepoti • Since Nov 2007 • 41 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    AS - point taken. I've never been a member of a gun club so purely speculative & agreed talk like that shud be reported.

    It is directly in line with accounts I've heard about NF (not my friends).

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    I thought long and hard before I used the verb "terrorise". But what else would you call a pre-dawn raid by fully armed, armoured and masked people?

    A reasonable reaction to people arming, training and talking seriously about killing innocent people?

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Sonic,

    "talking seriously"

    Were they? thats the point.

    You would expect that if this was "Serious" there would be planning going on, scouting of targets, preparation of explosives etc.

    In this police leak there is not a mention of anything like that (if there was they would have it front and centre)

    So all we have, as predicted, is some wild talk and playing soldiers on a hillside.

    Not a good look but hardly "terrorism"

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 102 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    For the people who are suggesting treason, do any of you actually understand what the "owing allegiance" requirement means? It is more than simply being a citizen, it is being someone who holds a special place in society

    That's not my understanding of treason at all. Certainly ordinary people have been done for treason against the Crown throughout history.

    I thought owing allegiance simply meant 'subjects', which includes all NZ citizens for starters.

    The person who suggested it was Graeme, who's our overworked PAS legal expert, so maybe he can respond.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Were they? thats the point.

    If the police had good reason to believe they were then the response is still what I would expect to see. And frankly, if that's "just a bit of wild talk" to you then I don't approve of the standards of behavior you're willing to accept from people around you.

    You're drawing all kinds of conclusions about paid informants etc etc with absolutely zero evidence, yet being totally unwilling to discuss the rather obvious issue that these people were discussing racially motivated murder. Do you really want to be seeking justification for that?

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 5 6 7 8 9 34 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.