OK, again, and perhaps briefer (relatively).

The first point I would make is that the SG didn't specifically absolve anybody of any particular wrongdoing

And that's what infuriates a lot of people in…

The concept of "police investigating police" is not viewed without considerable cynicism.

That's also somewhat dated. All my police complaints from the 90s were handled by the PCA, but investigated by police. About five (?) years ago the PCA got staffed up in response to the above criticism and they…

The first point I would make is that the SG didn't specifically absolve anybody…

I don't think older history is appropriate to reflect upon the PCA.

Maybe not, but the PCA is perceived as a band-aid at best and incidents of twenty years or more ago are seen as part of a continuum/symptoms of a basic malaise leading up to the present day. The…

There'll inevitably be some agreeing to differ.

There are two sides to every argument, and contributing causes for every event

Indeed, but the POV of those defending the activists is that one side is…

I googled "15 year old girl cavity search" and came up with nothing. Got any more info on this? A link?

Just while we're on the topic of "quoting out of context", this one's a cracker. I/O, you dirty, dirty man... ;)

]]> Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:58:43 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=36574#post36574 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=36574#post36574 Fine, Finn, thanks. Likewise, I can see important points of agreement.

Alas, I have to go to work. I'll be back later.

]]> Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:43:51 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=36572#post36572 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=36572#post36572 Thanks Kracklite, I think that's some progress in that we've got a lot to agree on now.

The problem that many of us are having with the response of the activist community is less the lack of willingness to talk as the __unshakable willingness to talk about the evils of…

]]> Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:36:28 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=36571#post36571 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=36571#post36571

because of people being arrested on the basis of quite specific evidence that they were preparing for violence. This is neither taking a balanced position or staying silent, so I think it's a pretty reasonable target for derision.

OK, late night and too much Scotch. That's my excuse, Your Honour.…

None of those things make it rape.

Did I say that it was rape? No. You are continuing to argue that if it is not one thing, then it must be the other of widely separated options. The doctor example was the most egregious.

At least now you are bringing…

You're thinking of someone else there, who's not me. The person you're looking for in this matter is Finn.

Sorry, I stand corrected. Flu also.

I would most certainly judge somebody with connections to Kyle Chapman for refusing to condemn his activities, wouldn't you? Honestly?

What has distinguished this case is the blanket smear of all involved when trials are pending based on some very murky associations created largely in some search warrants that in…

The basis of your argument there seemed to be that the civil liberties of the accused should not be defended because, hey, Thatcher defended Pinochet. It was a cheap ad hominem shot at best.

You're thinking of someone else there, who's not me. The person you're looking for in this…

Of course people are judged on their associations. That's exactly what happens in normal human society on a day to day basis. It's one of the most…

They have been entrusted by us not to abuse people with the power differential bestowed upon them.

My thoughts too. We can't just imagine that they have the best of motives and intentions and behave accordingly. That doesn't mean that they're fascist pigs, but in a society where certain people…

As far as I know, no one's accusing any police officers of having any sort of sex here.

Rape is not the same thing as sex.

OK, if you're going to jump into a conversation talking about X, and then start talking about Y, expect people to say "hey, I'm…

"very inappropriate"

Let's not mince words. It's "very inappropriate" to serve red wine with fish too. You do agree that sexual violation is criminal.

You're the one that started mincing words. I just think if you're going to do it, it helps to quote the person accurately.

OK, let's do…

And if they do, then NZ customs have got some serious navel gazing in the near future.

Maybe they do...

If it actually did happen, then I'd imagine that's how the police would view it too.

Your faith is touching. I can imagine pixies and elves, but I don't believe…

The it's-not-quite-as-bad-as argument. Irrefutable, that is.

No that's not my argument. I was simply agreeing with your point that sexual violation is a crime and it's more than just inappropriate, which is all that you said.

My point was if you're going to argue it's rape, argue that, sexual violation…

Yup. But the word that was used was rape, not sexual violation.

Ah, that's all right then. Sorry.

The it's-not-quite-as-bad-as argument. Irrefutable, that is.

quite specific evidence

What part of "inadmissible" don't you understand – or do you not care?

Ever heard of "sexual violation"? It's classified as a crime. More than just "inappropriate"

Yup. But the word that was used was rape, not sexual violation.

I'm sure it does. That doesn't necessarily make it rape though

Ever heard of "sexual violation"? It's classified as a crime. More than just "inappropriate"

Kyle – I can go out leaving your comment on rape sitting there. I take it you have completely missed all the stuff about rape being primarily violence rather than sex – that the sexual aspect is merely a tool that effectively expresses the violent subjugation of the victim.

You're…

It's late and it's been too much of Scotland's most famous export – and I don't mean golf.

I was making an insinuation? Sorry, I must have missed it. I just saw you bringing out the "you're with us or against us" thing and went "hey, I said just that to somebody else recently..."

And that's just what you were doing. Is it all just point scoring is…

But the police/media/public (re)actions bespeak the disturbing levels of underlying racism within our society, whether you're inclined to notice it or not.

Personally I'm not opposed to the idea that individuals and institutions in our society are, to some extent, racist, and I'm also not opposed to the idea that…

I won't carry on this kind of discussion with the heartless. It makes me sick.

Heartless and mindless. Good on you Sara: I don't think anyone else is reading, and these creeps really aren't worth the effort.

I…

Actively plotting murder with the genuine intention of carrying it out is also a…

And that's just a cherry picking and bloody snide. Care to make any other insinuations?

I was making an insinuation? Sorry, I must have missed it. I just saw you bringing out the "you're with us or against us" thing and went "hey, I said just that to somebody else…

third hand by the time it gets here

Umm. And if you played Chinese Whispers with it would you claim it was 10th hand? The evidence was written down, reading it doesn't make it third hand, it's just reading.

Re rape: see above.

I'm sure being cavity searched, if that's…

IF these event occurred, are you prepared to condemn them?

If you are referring to the girl's comments, the answer is no, I would not condemn them. I would, however, condemn the actions of a couple of the adults in the house. I think the AOS have established tactical procedures…

Re rape: see above.

Not sure if disingenuous refers to the transcripts or anyone here – If it is directed here, I assure you I am absolutely serious.

That seems much more like what you're objecting to than the examples you're citing, no?

And that's just a cherry picking and bloody snide. Care to make any other insinuations?

I repeat, I should not be required in a democratic society to disavow any sympathies with anyone to prove my…

It's the people who have made actively disingenuous statements that piss me off. And there have been a few.

The events that the 12 year old recounted 1st hand are completely unacceptable absolutely regardless of anything Tuhoe Lambert did or didn't do. The only question is, did they happen?

You make her accounts sound like the untarnished voice of truth, when they are merely one representation of the events.…

But I wouldn't mind the sumo armour up there

No, I will NOT give her name, nor will I demand a public pledge of loyalty to the state from her because her associates are accused of terroism. Really, what the hell are people thinking if they demand loyalty pledges?

Perhaps you could ask Asher that.

http://anarchia.wordpress.com/2007/11/21/where-do-you-stand-shutting-the-fuck-up-to-not-risk-our-freedom

That seems much…

No really, I've been there and made one, but is there something I am not doing AT gravatar (or here) that means its not coming up.

I think that you have to log off first and then log on again.

You mean the kind of bullshit escalation that reads "Cavity search" when "intimate body search" is printed, and translates "alleged actions" into fact when they're based on individual statements while translating them into fiction when they're based on 150+ pages of extremely detailed evidence and argument?

Which is what I…

"Clown" who, at 5'2" and 45 kg

Funnily enough, I know one too (and have done for several years), a more recent case. Not a broken collarbone, but severe bruising and an false assault charge to boot (literally, or it might have been a fist, or a baton) – thrown…

No really, I've been there and made one, but is there something I am not doing AT gravatar (or here) that means its not coming up.

PS thank you for taking pity on me!

The real politic of the situation, given the extreme imbalance of institutional, legal, financial and social power between the Police…

I have yet to see responses from the people he's posed them to that weren't big fat circumlocutions or just ignoring them.

Those accused and their associates, alas, have to keep their traps shut because what they say can prejudice their trials. That's a nontrivial point to them. Unlike the…

I had a lot of sympathy for Tuhoe Lambert, especially when I saw his whanau's story on 60 Minutes. That changed after I read the police document, and I started to think that he should take a whole lot of…

Excuse me? I haven't seen anything on these pages that indicates that anyone of us would not condemn murder.

Russell has posed, more than once, questions asking whether people would condemn the plans being discussed if they were accurate. I have yet to see responses from the people he's posed…

Secondly, I am not inclined to doubt complaints of police misconduct in this context.

With all due (and sincere) respect to everyone concerned, I don't regard everything I hear on National Radio as holy writ, and perhaps it might be time to take a deep breath and remember everyone accused…

Juvenal really had a point.

Those in power, whether they are right or wrong, must be open to scrutiny, and this should be a regular, even constitutional process. The tendency to dehumanise the supposed "other" so that 12-year-olds have guns pointed at their…

It is exactly that kind of bullshit escalation that gets us into more and more trouble.

You mean the kind of bullshit escalation that reads "Cavity search" when "intimate body search" is printed, and translates "alleged actions" into fact when they're based on individual statements while translating them into fiction…

I used as a favourite example the shooting down of an Iranian airliner by the USS Vincennes and the shooting down of KAL 007 by the Soviet air force. In both cases, those in charge of the weapons had been trained…

of CONVERSATIONS – not actions -

And, BTW, a film, The Conversation should be required viewing here. The phrase, "He'd kill us if he had the chance", is utterly crucial in the plot, and it's not even a punctuation mark ("Eats, shoots and leaves), but something even more subtle that…

They describe a complaint of women being intimately searched, with no reference as to who did the searching or their age. The 17 year old daughter of Tame Iti's partner was also searched "in full view of everyone" , but nothing about…

The burden of proof, fortunately for the people charged, is on the accuser to prove their guilt, not for…

Separating a 15 year old girl from her people and a male police officer conducting a "cavity search" is extreme wickedness.

Eh?

I googled "15 year old girl cavity search" and came up with nothing. Got any more info on this? A link?

I'm also skeptical that the Police would

Separat[e] a…

It begins, I think, with the act of recognition. Recognition that it was we who did the dispossessing. We took the traditional lands and smashed the traditional way of life. We brought the disasters. We took the children from their mothers. We practised discrimination and exclusion.

It was our ignorance…

that was, in the first place, acquired, editted and leaked

Some of PA's denizens are, sadly, wedded to the idea that it's OK. or, at the very least, unable to condemn murder when it's by people they see as politically sympathetic.

Excuse me? I haven't seen anything on these pages that indicates that anyone of us would not condemn murder.…

A notice outside a cafe in Courtenay Place: 'Head Chef Wanted. Tuhoe an advantage.'

Perhaps we could also have a word of condemnation for them too.

You've offered plenty of opportunities for people to condemn those who are happy to kill random civilians for fun and profit and I don't think you're going to make any more progress this time than you have in…

oops probably shouldn't have posted that, where is the delete button when you need it

S'alright. I deleted it for you. Funny though.

The impression…

The elephant just got bigger for me. Things that I…

kyle... you think of firing the broad-side?

"Not me!" said the... y'know. Thing.

if you get my meaning.

There is apparently one page missing. About Lockett ...

Ah. "Selective leaking", "things out of context", "don't know the full story", "probably not a true picture at all"!

Sorry, don't know where that came from. Must have read it somewhere.

can i please say, "i told you so"?

key.stone.cops.

Do you know if this the same document that the Dom used? Or did they have a different version?

There is apparently one page missing. About Lockett ...

The document that's online has clearly been leaked by someone on the defence side.

That's what I took from it too. Very interested in material to do with Lockett.

Do you know if this the same document that the Dom used? Or did they have a different version?

It would…

Making a special catagory for those with political motives- "terrorists"- still seems to me to be heading down the wrong- dangerously wrong- road.

Its a valid point, is it a worse crime to plan to kill the PM than it is to plan to kill Joe Bloggs next door? What…

But what say they're calling themselves terrorists? And explicitly discussing and acting on models for contemporary terrorism?

Perhaps it's simplistic, but I'd say don't feed their fantasy, don't buy their model, and put them in prison if there's any good evidence of a criminal conspiracy. But with other criminals of…

I'm with Sara regarding the power of symbols here. Calling alleged nasty criminals terrorists ...

But what say they're calling themselves terrorists? And explicitly discussing and acting on models for contemporary terrorism?

There's an "insider/outsider" element to the evidence, that itself has become divisive and which also breeds suspicion. Most…

Is that what it amounts to? A nasty coincidence of a rag-tag bunch of ill-conceived notions and a couple of sparks of almost-conspiracy and suddenly we've joined the ranks of the International Avengers against the Axis of Evil et al.

Can we really be that dumb?

Oh come on, Sara...…

Yeah. And I should add- only after evidence enough of a crime.

The "war on terror" is a rhetorical stupidity taken tragically in the wrong direction at every intersection. Calling it a war, calling the criminals responsible terrorists... we know the rest.

Bringing that to NZ is just lunacy in…

You capture my sense of this exactly. It is bizarre and surreal, mainly because I had managed to maintain my belief that with our relatively "neutral" stance on Iraq etc that we were effectively buying out of the whole war on terror thing.

War on Terror – I imagine…

I was thinking of wearing a silk scarf to get into some Terrorist Camp ; )

I was wondering if NZDF/CTTAG are civi-washed if they are engaged via CTAG & the cops?

I don't know what this sentence means sorry. civi-washed? engaged via?

It's my understanding, and I'm not an expert, that CTTAG can only be deployed by the same means as any other part of the…

I was wondering if NZDF/CTTAG are civi-washed if they are engaged via CTAG & the cops?

"But no defence forces were deployed"

You know this how?

Because when they're deployed for law enforcement, the PM must inform parliament at the earliest opportunity, which she hasn't done.

From the Aramoana wikipedia page:

As of 2007, it remains the only time that the crack New Zealand Special Air…

You know this how?

"I wasn't even aware that CTAG were involved"

If CTAG weren't used that would seem to be a serious error ignoring a body set up exactly for the sort of thing the cops thought they had.

If CTTAG were deployed to the Ureweras to gather intel, then report to CTAG, and then CTTAG go and raid Ruatoki. We have a self forfilling circle jerk of death.

But no defence forces were deployed. So your self-fulfilling circle jerk of death (and, it would be useful to remember,…

CTTAG was developed for NZ based Terrorism & CTAG to co-ordinate – at least we can learn from the yanks silos.

If CTTAG were deployed to the Ureweras to gather intel, then report to…

Cheers Kyle but I'm not sure you can exclude CTAG from SIS by saying it's hosted by it.

Well OK, up to you.

CTAG co-ordination is a good thing, just need to follow the rules & be up front when one area crosses over to help the other. As CTAG includes…

CTAG co-ordination is a good thing, just need to follow the rules & be up front when one area crosses over to help the other. As CTAG includes NZDF – CTTAG is part…

My understanding, and someone else might know more, is…

It looks like CTTAG could operate within CTAG – anyone know?

the Maori Trustee was originally the Native Trustee – so you get an idea of how far back it goes

the Maori Trustee has been Maori for the last twenty years or so

the Maori Trustee (who in the past was almost never Maori)

Okay – 20 years out of…

While the institutions were set up…

It took me by surprise, I can tell you.

I have never heard "touch of the tar brush" used in any NZ context. I think of it as old American and even older British usage. It's not part of my working vocab and I can confidently say there is no crossover in my mind.

I would have suspected "tarring…

"Three smacks and he's 'guilty' "

"The Masterton man was sentenced to nine months' supervision yesterday after admitting he had grabbed his son by the shoulder, held him on his knee and hit him with an open hand."

The sentence of 9…

Interesting re boats and farming (thanks) which…

I would have suspected "tarring…

We have, many times, in this discussion used the phrase, "tarred with the same brush" or similar. I'm guessing (put me right someone) that…

Neil, I could post the research that backs up my position, but I suspect even that wouldn't help you pull your head back out of your arse.

I take it that wasn't meant as an invitation to debate the relative merits of my arse vs. your brain but rather some…

Of course all this is paid by taxes, not run as a charity, but that doesn't really make any difference at all. It's expensive whoever picks up the tab.

Sure, and could you point me to any emergency service – whether funded publicly, privately or some combo of the two…

Some nice poetry in there to.

http://www.bignoisefilms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=16&Itemid=28

Like a gun to the head.

Never had a gun to my head.

You?

Bears cogitating upon.

Course, not everyone gets to feel like their life's suddenly turned into a movie, which is the going definition, I believe,…

Instead this is the latest I have seen from Paul Buchanan.

Steve, thanks for the link to Cithrin Ryin, though it makes me…

1. Buy a carton of orange juice and 30 1-gallon jugs of water.
2. Place one drop of orange juice into one of the jugs of water. Shake.…

Thanks Stephen.
"Standard AOS proceedure" looks like one thing when they are responding to an armed offender. Not ok when there are no arms, and no offenders.

Tuhoe Lambert was one of the two men who had been buying guns and military equipment on Trade Me, so they could claim…

a wake up call to some people who just don't have a clue that emergency services don't run on moonbeams and warm fuzzies. Since Dyan mentioned his brother, I suspect the bill for aviation fuel alone was not paid out of petty cash

In Canada the search and rescue (on…

...any awareness we have of a cultural identity is weak, fragile, superficial etc etc.

perhaps you could go through and change all those "we"'s to "I"s.

I’m not saying that individual police are any more given to racism than any of the rest of us but, given many of the…

DOC rightly points out that he could have set Rangitoto on fire. The fact that he didn't is, I presume, more luck than good management.

The fact that he didn't cause harm, beyond wasting emergency services time, isn't a reason to do something. The difference between 'nothing happening', and 'harm…

When settlers first came to this country there were, I think, active agendas that can now be understood as racist – the belief that, by getting Maori off the land and teaching them to work to generate capital for the state, we would be “civilising” them; that by giving them…

For me the questions remain:

1. Were people actually heading down a path of doing harm.
2. And/or were police reasonable in their belief that someone was heading down a path of doing harm.

We already have laws to cover those eventualities. Disturbing the peace, public nuisance and a raft…

Mouth off all you want to, that is a true mark of democracy.

Yup, I can agree with that.

I do believe that as long as it is acting/theatrical as opposed to Action/Harm then this also is a mark of democracy

Yup, I can agree with that too. And this also gets…

"not the hoods and lynchings, inveterate hatred kind – though we sure have that in NZ too"

I would have thought the police in balaclavas while cutting off a community at gun point and taking photos of the innocent would be a fair proxy here.

Proxy: the agency, function, or…

I would have thought the police in balaclavas while cutting off a community at gun point and taking photos of the innocent would be a fair proxy here.

we react with a visceral, almost instinctual violence

Or with a head-in-the-sand acceptance of / blindness to such violence.

Common identity – which we all, really, long for in some shape or form – is so fragile in this country that we react with a visceral, almost instinctual violence against agencies that lay claim to local…

But if you didn't see it and want to look, James George's (or George James's – can't remember) post in the first long discussion on this topic was quite worth reading re the conspiracy angle.

Sorry, can't be…

Boo hoo – I guess yr all off making tea before 24. Same here – see ya.

Glad to see you maintaining the standard, Steve (against all odds).

Where are the Nay sayers? Don't tell me Finn and Johnno…

Had the warrants been issued after the amendment to the TSA was passed would the result have been any different, if so how?
also, the police must have known about the amendment debate so the…

Looks like we've come full circle after all....

I win!!! Yay something with RB.!! Yay .
Wonders what a brain haemorrhage can do.

I didn't pick that – whole theme of Othello wasn't it.

It was really just off topic ramblings – sorry.

Yeah – why do you ask?

shep, are you ok?

Bumped into an old school mate last night – our School apparently has a tradition of "panty raids".

It's wasn't around in our day. Marlborough Girls' Principle of the time Mr Sophoclaous kept his girls on a tight leash back then…

"The sisters of St. Cathode ask that you cover yourself with filaments and take pains to make yourself fully incandescent this evening."

Has either of them called anyone on the Left a faggott??

Come to think of it, it's Rosemary McLeod and Karl DuFresne are the columnists who have trouble with gays.

and for anyone who still needs an excuse to stay indoors, chained to their computer, even tho' it's sunny outside...

who can make an anagram out of :

Tuhoe Tama Terrorist

An internet programme came up with:

a a em riot trust other

But I'm sure PAS readers…

The 39 year old isn't the same person as the previous threat. Miessen was an ex undercover drug squad cop. He's apparently had a few drug problems due to his undercover work. Interesting how his psychiatrist narked him of.

Interesting how they are still turning cops into drug addicts. They…

Is Woodham in competition with Coddington to be New Zealand's answer to Ann Coulter?

Has either of them called anyone on the Left a faggott??

... actually I heard Willie Jackson dismiss someone as a poofter on Radio Live on Friday afternoon. Gave me quite a shock ...

I/O that struck me. My thoughts were it reflected the presenters (are there Journos out there anymore) POV.

I did notice the footwear of that guy from sensible sentencing and it certainly wasn't matching let alone designer…

Is Woodham in competition with Coddington to be New Zealand's answer to Ann Coulter? This, only slightly paraphrased is what she had to…

Are we now living in a world where we are 'doped up' to keep happy? We get just enough of 'the good shit' to be content and not cause problems ...... we don't care…

If only we had some sort of ... of ... Thought Police?

Yeah... like those thought protesters in Queen st yesterday.Designer sandals,gags and sun glasses. No balaclavas, camo gear here.Wondered if that was what anonymous donations for the national party looked like." Freedom of speech" ..... I feel another tui…

What it was almost like was those other countries... We're not like that at all.

Tussock, the road to Hell, I believe, is paved not with good intentions, but cognitive dissonance and you've just given a nice potted summary of how it works.

Now, if you leak a few cherry-picked…

I don't think yr average copper and the vast majority of them are any more inherently fascist than yr average nurse or teacher (probably less so than yr average teacher)

Officious men in walk shorts made my life in primary school pretty annoying too, but I think that's rather too…

What it was almost like was those other countries,…

Why don't you convince me Johnno? Come on…