Speaker by Various Artists

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Speaker: John Roughan is Scared

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  • Joshua Arbury,

    You make a good point Andrea. Generally building transport capacity (be it more roads or more public transport) won't fix congestion, due to that interesting thing called "induced demand".

    However, what public transport does particularly well (especially rail) is increase the number of people who can still get to work even though there is congestion.

    Let's just think about Manhattan, where about 2 million people arrive every day to work, with about 95% of those people arriving by public transport. The roads are still congested, but it doesn't really matter that much as most people avoid the congestion by catching the train. If you tried to deal to Manhattan's transport situation by building lots of highways (and Robert Moses sure tried this) then you would just have more people experiencing the congestion - it wouldn't actually be any better. It would also be impossible for Manhattan to support so many jobs without its superb PT system.

    This shows the pointlessness of Steven Joyce's transport policies: trying to solve congestion by building more motorways. Over time all that will happen as a result of the motorway widening projects he's championing is that more people will be able to be congested on those motorways.

    The beauty of the CBD tunnel is that it enables a lot of people to get to the CBD at peak times in particular without having to experience congestion on the road network. From memory, the project brings over half a million people within a 30 minute rail trip of the CBD.

    Angus, I think you miss my point in your post above. My point is that to increase the frequency of trains on the western line, eastern line and southern line (and to even make an airport line possible) you need to build the CBD tunnel. Building rail to the North Shore does absolutely zilch to increase our ability to run more trains on the existing system.

    Furthermore, on the subject of North Shore Rail - what's wrong with the brand spanking new busway?

    Auckland • Since May 2009 • 237 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    Or, to greatly simplify the argument, if X number of people currently travel to work in the city and I build a PT system so that X+Y people can travel to work in the city with the same effort, it makes sense that the city and the area along the new PT corridor will intensify to take advantage of this. The car traffic may stay at the same level, but the city grows by Y people and those people use the PT to commute.

    Or to greatly simplify my argument, the majority of Auckland does not live on this enhanced PT corridor. If we are going to shift Y jobs to the city for each job we will have potential applicant A, B & C. Applicant A will live on a preferred transport corridor whilst applicants B & C will not. Intensifying development in Auckland CBD will make commuting worse for more people than it makes commuting better.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • Simon J Taylor,

    "Incidentally, does anyone know the reason why port bound trucks, rather than using the expensive motorway built for them, tend to drive up symonds St."

    Possibly since Symonds Street is a gentler grade. On very odd occasions I have seen a truck break down trying to make it up the Grafton Gully leg of the motorway.

    Mt Eden, Akl • Since May 2009 • 7 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    To illustrate my point I am going to provide a theoretical example using a place with a good public rail service (when the trains don't break down) all of us will have visited.

    As a thought exercise I am going to ask us to imagine we are Wellingtonians* in an alternative reality where there is no rail line up the Hutt Valley. Way back when the railway planners looked at the Rimutaka Ranges and decided not to bother.

    Now us Wellingtonians have a problem we are approaching capacity on the existing CBD - Porirua - Paraparaumu - Levin line.

    Should we:

    A - put in tunnel loop subway, perhaps include a spur out to the airport, thus doubling the amount of trains able to use the PT corridor and appreciating that a good subway will genuinely make Wellington a nicer place to work.

    B - build a railway line to the Hutt Valley.


    * I do apologise.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • Joshua Arbury,

    Angus, if we have a superb busway up the Hutt Valley that cost $400 million and opened two years ago then I would probably choose (A).

    Auckland • Since May 2009 • 237 posts Report Reply

  • ChrisW,

    Good try, but slam-dunked - I declare Joshua the winner.

    And with the 'savings' surely there'll be plenty left for ongoing maintenamce, renewal and investment in the Whangarei and Gisborne railways as well.

    Gisborne • Since Apr 2009 • 851 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    Furthermore, on the subject of North Shore Rail - what's wrong with the brand spanking new busway?

    Buses get stuck in traffic jams caused by cars. Being stuck in a traffic jam on a bus is qualitatively worse than being stuck in the same jam in your car.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    ...staggered working hours, or working from home?

    Because NZ employers live in the dark ages and fret that they aren't getting their pound of flesh out of the serfs if they aren't at their desks 8:30-5:00, with 10 minutes exactly for morning and afternoon tea, plus half an hour for lunch. Just as it was in 1932.

    In much of the world, they have the idea that staff are given jobs to do and get on with them, eating sandwiches at the desk if busy, spending an afternoon in the pub if it's a slack week. If they feel they work best at home, then working at home is the thing to do.

    The firm winds up getting better productivity through giving people flexibility, the staff feel valued and don't leave as soon as a better offer eventuates.

    I actually think this is a major hidden reason for NZ uncompetitiveness.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    what's wrong with the brand spanking new busway?

    It stops at the bridge and the buses have to queue up with the cars. Having one clipon 2/3 transit and 1/3 pedestrian cycle would solve this at minimal cost. A congestion charge would remove the resulting congestion *and* finance better public transport.

    Wasn't this where we came in?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • andrea quin,

    Buses do get stuck in traffic, but bus lanes and dedicated bus ways are being/have been/could be built to get around that problem. It is now much quicker to get the bus in from the North Shore to the CBD than it is to drive.

    Applicant A will live on a preferred transport corridor whilst applicants B & C will not.

    People can move and new people coming to the city (where much of Auckland's growth comes from) can choose where to live. If jobs are all over the place without any very high density area, they'll probably just live anywhere and resign themselves to driving. If many jobs are concentrated in one area and there are good transport corridors to that area, people can choose to live along those corridors and reasonably expect to find work in the CBD. Indeed, the CBD with the radial tram line system was built on this very notion. High density areas are still found along those historic routes.

    Furthermore, the high quality transport network can be extended into the areas where B and C live. Creating half-arsed transport corridors to all of the population doesn't really make anyone happy and just leads to more sprawl.

    Auckland • Since Dec 2009 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Because NZ employers live in the dark ages and fret that they aren't getting their pound of flesh out of the serfs if they aren't at their desks 8:30-5:00

    Poor quality management and governance is a major reason for our nation's low productivity. Sadly that includes managing staff's time and presence rather than their results.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Buses get stuck in traffic jams caused by cars

    Angus, do you understand what the word "busway" means?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I don't actually disagree with Angus about the value of putting more lines to more places. That is also a good idea. But I think more city destinations is also a good idea, especially as it provides a benefit to everyone who is already on a line. It's got a really high return. Also tunnels don't require knocking over existing dwellings so you don't have to shaft thousands of property owners. But that will eventually have to happen as the lines expand.

    Yes, better rail will mean the transport corridors will be more desirable to live along. The problem with this is?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    Tonights Bridging the Gap Special on Media 7. Communicating science.

    Haywood had the answer. Get rid of the gas guzzlers.

    Simple.

    ACT now!!! Hide Rodney!!

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH,

    Being stuck in a traffic jam on a bus is qualitatively worse than being stuck in the same jam in your car.

    I don't agree. In a bus you can read or mess about on your phone or whatever. It's not safe to do that in a car if you're driving. I'd prefer to be in the traffic jam in a bus provided I had a seat.

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    Furthermore, the high quality transport network can be extended into the areas where B and C live.

    If this were indicated by any sort of staged transport plan to extend high quality services to the majority of Auckland, we wouldn't be having most of this discussion.

    Creating half-arsed transport corridors to all of the population doesn't really make anyone happy...

    It is however equitable, as in paying towards an effective transport system (through rates or rent or fuel tax) should benefit all of us aucklanders with an equitable access to PT. It should not just benefit a select few land owners whose capital is set to go up. Or have I missed the point again and this will all be paid for by ticket price increases and not through taxes?

    ...and just leads to more sprawl.

    Pinehill/Browns Bay and Papakura/Ardmore - extending highly efficient PT to one of these locations will encourage urban sprawl and providing it to the other will result in a compact Auckland city.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Yeah, why can't they just declare one bridge lane for buses?

    Brainless people in charge of things once again.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    My point about working from home was not that it's for everyone, but that some (enough?) people will do it, perhaps only on some days of the week, to make it a possible option for reducing congestion.

    Similarly, staggered working hours: I've worked in large firms where your arse had to be on the seat a certain number of hours a day, and at certain core times. But if you wanted to start at 7 in the morning and go home at 3, you could. Or start at 10 and go home at 6.30 - 7.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Talking about connecting A, B and C whilst servicing the need of the CBD and sneering in passing at the misfortunes of ACT... what is this, Sesame Street?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Stewart,

    I live 'way out west' and commute into Mt Wellington daily. Not ideal but I am allowed to start at 7am and leave at 3:30pm which takes me out of the worst of the traffic. However, it can still be pretty bad even at these so-called 'off-peak' times.

    For an approx 40km drive (there is no viable PT option that doesn't take at least 2 hours each way) it takes about 40 - 45 minutes in the morning (6:05 - 6:45ish) but generally around 1hr going home.

    So the staggered hours thing works for me. When I was working in town it was a 6km drive to the station and an unreliable 1 - 1.25 hrs in the train into Britomart. I understand the trains are much more reliable these days.

    I'd be happy to use PT these days but only if it was cost- and time-effective but there is very little provision for the commute that I have to endure. But for folks working in the CBD and living not too far from the rail corridor, the trains would be a no-brainer.

    Te Ika A Maui - Whakatane… • Since Oct 2008 • 577 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    Haywood had the answer. Get rid of the gas guzzlers.

    IIRC his answer was a bit more nuanced than that. Lets not upset the poor fellow by reducing his considered answers to slogans.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1891 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    <invokes immunity to community outrage spell>
    I actually don't see the problem with urban sprawl. If good transport makes it possible and people like their semi-rural suburbs, that's all good by me. Yeah ok, carbon footprint. But don't forget, I'm one of those home workers, when you get high and mighty about the virtue of commuting by train to work.</invoke>

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Poor quality management and governance is a major reason for our nation's low productivity.

    <commie> I don't see how managers make that much difference. The workers are the ones who, like, do shit. </commie>

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    nay-bore hoods and alpha-betting shops...

    ...what is this, Sesame Street?

    oh well, there's always some muppet trying to promote inner city communities...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Talking about connecting A, B and C whilst servicing the need of the CBD and sneering in passing at the misfortunes of ACT... what is this, Sesame Street?

    I see where you're going but I already have dibs on The Grouch. Choose quickly, no one wants to get stuck with Big Bird.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

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