Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Vision and dumbassery

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  • izogi, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    Isogi gives a coherent argument in looking past Cunliffe in order to justify voting for Labour but I contend that the leader’s strengths or otherwise are a critical factor.

    In relation to this, I’d contend that John Key isn’t leading National at all, at least in a traditional way. Sure, he’s the party leader and the PM, but his main criteria for selection has been as a marketing figurehead to sit in front.

    He avoids genuine confrontation (consider all that length of time he refused to show up on Radio NZ until he's had to), he flip-flops his positions and statements according to what pollsters tell him will be most popular at any one time, and whenever he’s genuinely challenged he falls to bits and starts lashing out in random directions with immature insults instead of actually addressing points.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1141 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    There are like four posts up there talking about how personality-driven politics are inherently bad for democracy and therefore Cunliffe's personal qualities are less important than the policies each party espouses, so feel free to engage with that argument any time you like.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow, in reply to Danielle,

    Perception but not reality Danielle. Politics are invariably personality-driven and aren't what good or bad governments are ultimately judged on.
    Were the following governments ineffectual because of their big-personality leaders...eg Lange, Clark, Obama, Thatcher, Clinton, Kennedy etc etc?
    I suspect backing off any attempt to table Cunliffe's strengths is in accordance with his poor ratings.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    whenever he’s genuinely challenged he falls to bits and starts lashing out in random directions with immature insults instead of actually addressing points.

    Scarily, that may well be a selling point for some of his supporters.

    Were the following governments ineffectual

    This doesn’t negate the point that personality shouldn’t be allowed to trump policy. Did any of these examples rely solely on personality? Whether or not you agree with their policies, they also had clear goals for their vision of society, established over a long political career -- none of them were parachuted into politics through backroom deals to be a figurehead. (Another argument against the primacy of personality cults is that several of these examples were arguably hampered by their personality. I would say Kennedy, Lange, Obama, Clark all underachieved relative to their -- lofty -- goals.)

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1941 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Wallis, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    Were the following governments ineffectual because of their big-personality leaders…eg Lange, Clark, Obama, Thatcher, Clinton, Kennedy etc etc?

    Don't forget Hitler, Stalin and Mao. I'm a little unclear on your point?

    Point Chevalier • Since Jan 2013 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow, in reply to Dean Wallis,

    My point is that personality-driven politics or government can be good or bad for democracy. Lange, Kennedy, Clark, Key…..good. Mao, Hitler, Stalin bad.
    But not all bad.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

  • Greg Dawson, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    The most important aspect of any potential priminister is well known to be his or her competence at the wearing of common business attire.

    I have not seen you address the crucial question of why you believe Key is a more accomplished dresser than Cunliffe, when clearly this is the major driver of most New Zealanders political thinking. At the end of the day, you haven’t even come clean on whether maternal assistance pertains.

    Frankly, I have to wonder if your refusal to address the sartorial elements of the campaign is due entirely to your inability to make a rational argument for Keys wardrobe mastery. You keep bringing up other elements of the campaign which everyone knows are not really important compared to this, so obviously you are just trying to avoid a point you know you can’t argue with.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 294 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    My point is that personality-driven politics or government can be good or bad for democracy. Lange, Kennedy, Clark…..good. Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Key bad.
    But not all bad.

    There, fixed that up for you. But why Godwin a perfectly good concern troll?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Dean Wallis,

    On Planet Key I am not sure what language is spoken, could it be Troll?

    Listen for the Jamaican accents </nerd joke>

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Angela Hart,

    Why encourage him? He's distracting, he's annoying and he's wasting time we could be spending in a valuable exchange of ideas and information. IMHO he's best ignored, attempts to get him to engage in sensible discourse have been made aplenty.
    On the other hand we wouldn't have had Ian's pearl without Jake's irritation.

    Christchurch • Since Apr 2014 • 614 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz, in reply to BenWilson,

    Ha!

    "John Key is not the PM you are looking for. Move along."

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to blindjackdog,

    And the Greens just come across as such wet tossers these days, to be frank.

    That's not my take. They go plenty hard enough, but their focus is not mine. I'd be quite happy for them to cover that focus full time and for their social/economic policy to remain in second place if a party with the opposite ordering of top priorities were around to complement them. They'd work well together, I think, having basically a very similar set of policies, but with a different ordering of the number 1 position. I like their very detailed and well worked out positions with a scientific focus. But I think that focus is necessarily limited, that I still have a lot of opinions on matters outside of science, and at the moment those are important to me. In the long run, environmentalism is vital. In the short term, social equality is a bigger concern for me.

    I like how organized and professional the Greens are. That has a lot of appeal. But we have an opportunity created by the perfect storm that created the bizarre personality with a ton of money, an electorate representative with real credibility, and a time of massive and increasing youth disengagement to create a strong extension to our national left wing. I want to help, if it isn't futile.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow,

    I know there are no such words as "bitter" or "cynical" or "envious" or phrases such as "chip-on -the-shoulder" on Planet Key.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    We have a parliamentary democracy - we don't vote for the PM - we vote for parties who in turn choose their PM and cabinet - they can even kick out a PM mid term and appoint another without holding an election - all they have to be able to do is convince the GG that they have confidence and supply

    This is not the USA with a president, this is a parliamentary democracy, we elect our ministers, not give their jobs to our best mates or highest fundraisers - people who focus too much on the cult of a particular party leader are obviously unclear on how our democracy really works

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    I know there are no such words as “bitter” or “cynical” or “envious” or phrases such as “chip-on -the-shoulder” on Planet Key.

    so I guess Judith's now on a different planet then

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    Warning Will Robinson! Warning!

    As I"ve repeated. I did dissect my praise for Key on Page 4 of the 2014 Methane Election topic which I suspect may have answered many of Ian’s musings.
    Please refer and get back to me.


    I think we've crossed the Turing Horizon on this one...
    Caught in a logic loop.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston, in reply to Angela Hart,

    Why encourage him? He’s distracting, he’s annoying and he’s wasting time we could be spending in a valuable exchange of ideas and information. IMHO he’s best ignored, attempts to get him to engage in sensible discourse have been made aplenty.
    On the other hand we wouldn’t have had Ian’s pearl without Jake’s irritation.

    +1 Angela
    The irritant has done its job now and can be washed down with a nice Chardonnay with the rest of the oyster, a wee burp, then ignored.

    As for Ian's Pearl its a , well its a pearler, love it . still re reading it , he's a treasure here, a public address Taonga

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Wallis, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    I know there are no such words as “bitter” or “cynical” or “envious” or phrases such as “chip-on -the-shoulder” on Planet Key.

    How about "delusional"?

    Point Chevalier • Since Jan 2013 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Wallis, in reply to Angela Hart,

    Why encourage him? He’s distracting, he’s annoying and he’s wasting time we could be spending in a valuable exchange of ideas and information.

    A good point Angela, however it fascinates me to see if we can actually tease out something that would enlighten us all. I have recently been swapping opinions with right-wing acquaintances and am working on a theory that there is no conscious thought associated with right-wing politics. Due to the inability to elucidate anything more than "he's a lovely man" or "Run, John, Run", none of my samples has come up with anything useful.

    Although not having studied the subject thoroughly, my working hypothesis is that if your politics fall towards the right-wing, the more you are controlled by the Limbic System, rather than conscious rational thought. This explains several things - of course the alien shape-shifter allegations, and also the fact that John Key is of a comedic nature.

    How Laughter Works

    Point Chevalier • Since Jan 2013 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • krothville, in reply to Angela Hart,

    +1.
    I've been lurking on PA for a number of years because I really enjoy this place, its lack of trolls, and the ability of people in the comments section to respond rationally and with evidence to differences of opinion.

    Since Sep 2014 • 73 posts Report Reply

  • Trevor Nicholls, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    I know there are no such words as "bitter" or "cynical" or "envious" or phrases such as "chip-on -the-shoulder" on Planet Key.

    On Planet Key there is no middle ground. John Key is right and anyone else is wrong. Throughout his changing stories, First Citizen John Key has been right all along.

    He's a man without a moral compass and without conviction. A bit like you, I think.

    Wellington, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 324 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to AndrewH,

    I’ve felt they needed more mongrel to survive/achieve their potential.

    A notable lack of sandals.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    Cortina trap...

    - Caught in a logic loop.
    I know there are no such words as “bitter” or “cynical” or “envious” or phrases such as “chip-on -the-shoulder” on Planet Key.

    Daisy, Daisy give me your answer do...

    Dave is the man to shut this rogue trading program down
    Key has always been a sell-sword with an eye on the throne
    but the quality of his mercenary is strained...

    NOTE: [Translations are available on 0900 IANSLINGO
    99c per minute. May Contain Adult Concepts.]

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    As I"ve repeated. I did dissect my praise for Key on Page 4 of the 2014 Methane Election topic which I suspect may have answered many of Ian’s musings.
    Please refer and get back to me.

    Ian's post is actually a response to that page 4 post you're referring to above, so referring me back to it doesn't constitute a response to Ian's post - we are going in circles. (Also I've just reread that post of yours, and all of the subsequent ones, and you didn't elaborate any further on those points or make further arguments in support of them, beyond claiming that Key has the "X factor".)

    I see numerous people upthread calling time on this whole discussion, and I need to bow out shortly for work reasons myself anyway, but I would be interested in whether you can simply respond, in order for convenience's sake, to Ian's points which he raised in response to your own. They're not really that hard to understand if you take the time and work through them, and it would go a long way to showing you're prepared to make the effort to argue points in good faith (which is what makes PAS at its best so unique).

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow,

    I'm baffled too Angela. All this attention on a humble right-wing, Key fan.
    Maybe its just that, I attract all this ant-rhetoric because I'm not a paid-up member of the PA Cosy-Club.
    As you'll notice, I get a lot of abuse but fear of a stranger can and does provoke strange reactions at times.
    The one person who appears to rise above the need to squash me is Russell. He was right to pull me up previously, but he obviously realises I simply wish to debate nowadays.
    Maybe from a more conspiracy-driven angle, I suffer like the fat boy did in Golding's Lord Of the Flies ???{my memory's not great] where that dark side of human nature was exposed where any group often tends to regularly pick on the odd one out.
    That's all I can come up with.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

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