Hard News by Russell Brown

Read Post

Hard News: Not yet standing upright

316 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 13 Newer→ Last

  • Robyn Gallagher, in reply to Dylan Reeve,

    I hate the spoiling the ballot campaigns. It’s literally the same as not voting.

    "Wow, look at all these votes with "THIS SUCKS" written on them. I had no idea people felt this way. This is a serious wake-up call. Let's just scrap the referendum."

    - No one, 2015

    Raglan • Since Nov 2006 • 1946 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Vote Hypnoflag! (Not blatantly self-promoting, honest!)

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to James Littlewood*,

    well you have to have something that all New Zealanders can relate to

    Actually you have to have something New Zealanders WILL relate to

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Dylan Reeve, in reply to Robyn Gallagher,

    “Wow, look at all these votes with “THIS SUCKS” written on them. I had no idea people felt this way. This is a serious wake-up call. Let’s just scrap the referendum.”

    - No one, 2015

    And yet that is exactly what Winston Peters is suggesting...

    At the whim of the PM we’ve been saddled with a $26 million flag debate.
    He’s going all out to get rid of our flag, which carries the Union Jack.
    On the other hand, he brought back a colonial relic – knighthoods.
    He wants more visits from the royals.
    He’s given Prince Charles three military honours.
    Yet he loves Hawaii, which has the Union Jack on its flag.
    All rather odd.
    And instead of being neutral for the debate he has been loud and clear he favours the silver fern.
    Four designs today, and the silver fern dominates!
    What the PM wants, he gets.
    We say write Keep Our Flag, or KOF, on the referendum voting paper.
    With many making the vote invalid there will be no good reason to continue with a second, costly referendum. ‪#‎KOF‬

    - https://www.facebook.com/winstonpeters/posts/1188564987836293

    Auckland • Since Aug 2008 • 311 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    (Not blatantly self-promoting, honest!)

    Obviously. Those of us who choose not to use Facebook aren't even allowed to view your post. That's one way to ensure Hypnoflag avoids widespread acceptance.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Everyone seems to think it's important that a child could draw the flag.

    Nothing horrifies me more. What are you trying to do, indoctrinate your children into blind loyalty to a flag? It's been done before a whole bunch of times, with horrifying results.

    Flags should be for adults. They serve multiple purposes but children should not be the subject of flag propaganda - leave that for the USA.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Jason Kemp,

    It’s a bit like being invited the flag-games. A compulsory $26m party at which choices no designer would make are being offered up. At least they aren’t demanding tributes to fight it out to the death on television.

    By including 3 fern designs in the final 4 and one badly executed Koru the situation has become a Hobson’s choice.

    It’s not like most of us have any use for a flag most of the time but it is disappointing to waste an opportunity to be excellent by making mediocre choices.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 368 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Alfie,

    Those of us who choose not to use Facebook aren’t even allowed to view your post.

    That's not my choice. It's as public as I can make it. Given that Hypnoflag wasn't even a thing 24 hours ago, you can't expect the full web experience immediately.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler, in reply to Robyn Gallagher,

    “Wow, look at all these votes with “THIS SUCKS” written on them. I had no idea people felt this way. This is a serious wake-up call. Let’s just scrap the referendum.”

    - No one, 2015

    What are you talking about? This is exactly how Banksy and Russell Brand brought down Capitalism.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 856 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to ,

    Technically those aren't leaves, they're leaflets on a compound leaf.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • st ephen,

    I don’t think adopting an existing design with strong meaning associated would be a good idea

    True, which rules out the Hundertwasser flag, which is most often seen surrounded by faded rainbow wind socks and driftwood poles sporting paua shells. Personally I loathe it - and I vote Green! Lockwood's awful mess is benefiting from 15 years of promotion, whereas any version of Hundertwasser's was up against it because of previous use. It was always a complete non-starter - as the final four should have been.
    And for all the bitching about lack of Design Professional input, the 10,000+ entries included plenty of awful flags from professionals.

    dunedin • Since Jul 2008 • 254 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    That's not the point though. The point of saying that a child should be able to draw it is meant to be indicative of the simplicity of the design.
    Also, why does being able to draw it imply blind loyalty? Any time we had to do a school project on a country, we'd draw its flag. So it's not just for the children of NZ that choosing a simple flag is a kindness.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 585 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler, in reply to Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    Any time we had to do a school project on a country, we’d draw its flag. So it’s not just for the children of NZ that choosing a simple flag is a kindness.

    What this says to me is that the flag should be either a) very simple OR b) a dragon.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 856 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    One of the things I like about New Zealand is most folks don't give a rats arse about the symbols. You don't see kiwis stand up with hand on heart the moment the first bars of the anthem ring out. There is no blind reverence of the flag.

    We are proud of our country not proud of some symbol.

    So yeah our current flag is kinda meh and our anthem is a god bothering dirge, but hey who cares, our country is still quite good really.

    None of that appeals to a politician, it means they can't command loyalty with a symbol they actually have to provide substance.

    Our current flag isn't great, it could be better ... some of the designs proposed had potential to become something New Zealander's could accept as a better symbol of our country and our people.

    But a cynical and mostly incompetent government screwed up the process and we got some logos.

    I'll vote for the hypnoflag and then vote for our current flag because none of the National caucus approved options deserve to carry New Zealand into the future.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to James Butler,

    Ha! No, not a dragon. I went to school in Wales for a bit. That bleeding dragon is a bugger to draw. All the Welsh children had trouble with it too, and they'd been seeing it all their lives and no doubt had had a bit more practice. Mind you, maybe the miserable little blighters' hearts weren't in it or anything else, what with the slag heaps and the 90% unemployment that were the prevailing features of Pontypridd in 1981.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 585 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    So yeah our current flag is kinda meh and our anthem is a god bothering dirge, but hey who cares, our country is still quite good really.

    I've always kind of hated our anthem. Then one day I was curious about how and when the decision was made to add the Maori verse, and I ran across the documentary David Farrier made about it, and I kind of changed my mind. Turns out God Defend NZ is the brash new anti-colonial anthem. And the answer to my question was there never really WAS a decision, it just happened.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Dylan Reeve, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Everyone seems to think it’s important that a child could draw the flag.

    Nothing horrifies me more. What are you trying to do, indoctrinate your children into blind loyalty to a flag? It’s been done before a whole bunch of times, with horrifying results.

    It's a shorthand for simplicity.

    Think instead about the many mediums in which it might be desirable to be able to reproduce the flag - from embroided to painted on a face... even baked in a cake. In monochrome or with a limited palette.

    Basically a flag should be easy to reproduce from memory, with simply implements even when constrained by materials.

    (The same usually goes for logos too)

    Auckland • Since Aug 2008 • 311 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to Dylan Reeve,

    baked in a cake

    There's another good test for simplicity! How easily can I ice this on a cake?

    Stars are easy, I can use star cookie cutters. Koru are fine - I'd need a template but I could whip one up easily enough. Straight lines, no problem. Fern fronds? Sod off! Fiddly. Annoying. Difficult.

    Hypnoflag, on the other hand, would even be easy on cakes, cupcakes, or coffee crema (as previously mentioned). In fact, I reckon if I got super excited with egg white and food colouring, I could make a hypnoflag pavlova.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 585 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    My concern is less about the flag, more about the democratic process.

    The role of a referendum is always an issue to debate in a democracy. Different lands, different methods. Generally, I favour representative democracy, but with an outlet, such as citizens' initiated referenda (and a beefed-up law, requiring a response, though Parliament must retain the final say). Basic principle - the more public engagement, the better.

    This whole flag shemozzle is damaging the democratic process. A referendum is now widely seen as a PM's toy, not the result of hundreds of thousands of signatures. It's not from "us", as when people were exercised by smacking or asset sales. Result - more cynicism, and inevitable (if wrong-headed) calls to boycott, sabotage, etc.

    It reinforces the feeling of a fake democracy. Yes. you can "have your say" on social media, but ... not really. You're not on the panel. You can do the work, submit the designs, but ... it's in the trash.

    It's the kind of phoney consulting that pisses people off at work - "I value your input", lies the boss, before doing what he was planning anyway. And across the democratic world, cynicism is growing, often reflected in low turnouts and the rise of extremist parties. In NZ we're still a long way from the worst of that, and mocking is better than rioting, but ...

    TLDR: Key doesn't do civics, doesn't care, and it shows. And it matters.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1330 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Attachment

    Today's Tremain

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Ben Chapman,

    Attachment

    Interestingly, Hundertwasser intended it to be a secondary flag.

    I was privileged enough to be given one of his screen prints. It's showing it's age but I cherish this original dearly. I feel lucky :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to simon g,

    This whole flag shemozzle is damaging the democratic process.

    I'm trying to figure out whether the first referendum is an STV vote? The Wiki entry refers to a ranking of the four designs but the official government website doesn't go into any explanation of that.

    But if it is STV, then would a Hypnoflag supporter be advised to just rank that design with a number 1 and no ranking after that? Point is, if it is an STV vote, then one can only assume all 'fern' supporters will rank the ferns 1, 2 and 3 (with hypno as 4) and as one fern drops out in any one round, obviously the next fern will be allocated all the secondary votes from fern supporters next ranking, and so on until it's a fern - no matter what.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Mikaere Curtis, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I'll vote for the hypnoflag and then vote for our current flag because none of the National caucus approved options deserve to carry New Zealand into the future.

    This.

    Key wanted his legacy to be a silver fern derivative logo, and stacked the flag panel to deliver his preferred options in a 3:1 mix. Screw that, I'm voting Hypnoflag followed by Keep The Existing One, I want a proper process not this farce.

    Tamaki Makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 528 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to Katharine Moody,

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 13 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.