Hard News: Narcissists and bullies
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BenWilson, in reply to
I would not be surprised to find that the three others were somehow talked out of formal complaints.
It would be very interesting to hear how those interviews went. If they're anything like the one mentioned yesterday, then that's exactly what they were doing. To what extent are parents involved? The girl who spoke yesterday told her parents first, who took her to the police - was she interviewed in their presence? Or a lawyer? I can see there's some argument if the children come forward without their parents not to involve the parents if the children don't want that. And also, from a courtroom point of view, to not inform the victims about the other victims, to avoid the testimony becoming tainted.
But this puts every victim in their own private little powerless bubble of isolation, unsure that they might be the only one coming forward. Being a witness in a group is far less frightening, and victims can surely give each other emotional support, and can also spread word as a group to the other kids that might still be being targeted, to let them know what they're in for. Indeed, if they spoke together it might have even influenced the boys themselves - it's way easier to isolate and slut-shame one girl, but when a group of them are saying "don't go near those guys, they raped all of us", then they wouldn't be the cool bullies any more. The girl group supporting the boys might feel a whole lot less sure of themselves when they're 4 girls who actually don't know what happened against 4 girls who do.
I don't know how it works, but since the justice system seems to fail rape victims so badly, there is a strong case that at least putting complainants against the same perpetrator in touch with each other makes sense, just for harm prevention alone.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Unless we’re taking corruption to mean talking victims out of bringing hard-to-win cases in order to avoid the district’s numbers looking bad?
Possibly. Waitemata police district reported a 7.8% fall in sexual assault offences last year. How much of that is cases not getting to court?
I also thought it was significant that the Waitemata superintendent told Kathryn Ryan this morning that the other three complaints "had not progressed" to a formal stage. No longer that no victim was "brave" enough.
And yesterday the police finally sought and obtained a fucking search warrant. I refuse to believe that this somehow suddenly became possible because they talked to two of the gang again.
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Stephen R, in reply to
But being a worthless douche with the compassion and moral compass of Genghis Khan is merely reprehensible.
That's a bit harsh. Genghis had a very strong moral compass, though it didn't necessarily point in the same direction as ours. He was very big on enforcing the laws. It was said at the time that a virgin with a bag of gold on her head could walk from one end of the Mongol Empire to the other without fear of being robbed or molested.
I'm don't think that's true in New Zealand.
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9371620/Four-girls-contact-police-over-Roast-Busters-group
"She also alleged police asked her what she had been wearing and had said she was wearing clothing "that were pretty much asking for it"...
Really? Clods.
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Richard Aston, in reply to
We need a deep level of moral change for a very large portion of New Zealand’s men, including boys, their family and the police.
+1 Dastardly
And I think it starts with men , we need to start the conversations, among older men, with younger men, with our boys.
For a man to develop a deep respect for women is to develop a deeper respect for humanity, the masculine and for himself .In my experience the key influence on boy's attitudes to women, over and above peer pressure, is the signals they get from the older men in their lives.
I am looking at the older men in these boys lives and thinking they should be hanging their heads in shame for failing their boys so much.
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Scott Gamble, in reply to
I am looking at the older men in these boys lives and thinking they should be hanging their heads in shame for failing their boys so much.
Too right.
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Dastardly Bounder, in reply to
Too true. Where were the fathers, grandfathers, uncles, brothers, and friends of the family. This stuff didnt occur in a vacuum, it occured with a culture.
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11152671
Police Minister Anne Tolley has referred the Police handling of the Roast Busters to the Independent Police Conduct Authority after meeting with Police Commissioner Peter Marshall this morning.
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Hebe, in reply to
.
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Greg Dawson, in reply to
Too true. Where were the fathers, grandfathers, uncles, brothers, and friends of the family. This stuff didnt occur in a vacuum, it occured with a culture.
But the actual rapists are still rapists. Just sayin'.
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Brodie Davis, in reply to
“She also alleged police asked her what she had been wearing and had said she was wearing clothing “that were pretty much asking for it"…
Really? Clods.
Yeah this is horrific. A choice comment from another forum. Trigger warning.
Are there official police guidelines for just how slutty 13 year old girls can dress before they're allowed to be gang raped?
Because it pretty much seems like there is a line in the sand somewhere, but no one is willing to disclose it, because it would make them a terrible person, and once you are articulating it, it is impossible to defend. As you see complaints from Saudi Arabia of woman in full burqa's still being molested on the street. Its not about what they are wearing, its about the men (in the great majority of cases) who are doing the offending.
How do we get the message out that it doesn't matter what someone is wearing, or what they are doing. Rape is not allowed, there is nothing a woman can do to deserve rape. EVER.
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Hebe,
Thank you to all the men in the thread recognising in their comments the culture change needed.
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Hebe, in reply to
But the actual rapists are still rapists. Just sayin’.
Yep true. The enabling and supporting of the rapists: what’s that? Why weren't these rapists called out by their friends, parents, teachers, rellies? Just sayin’.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Older men are an influence, but I think even bigger are the slightly older boys. At least that's how it was when I was a boy. Which is what a culture is all about. When the Roast Busters were 13, 14, 15 they'd have been getting cues from the older guys, they'd have been going to their parties and seeing them getting girls drunk, hearing them brag of conquests, and getting initiated themselves.
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Henry Barnard, in reply to
And we’re hiring more police every election year, so that lump is getting bigger.
A time to consider introducing a quota system to encourage a significant increase in the number of women in the police force? And especially at higher levels?
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
mixed messages...
...the signals they get from the older men in their lives.
mentor boys to men
(humane beings)
or
torment boy to tortured man?Seems a simple choice
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Greg Dawson, in reply to
A time to consider introducing a quota system to encourage a significant increase in the number of women in the police force? And especially at higher levels?
Have been wondering how hard it must be to be a female police officer; maybe as bad as being in the military? Which is fucking awful to consider, given what we know about that.
Need more women in the police, but can't in good conscience encourage people to subject themselves to that sort of environment. Problem.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
Because it pretty much seems like there is a line in the sand somewhere, but no one is willing to disclose it, because it would make them a terrible person, and once you are articulating it, it is impossible to defend.
Oh, but “the line” has to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time, because The Victim-Blaming Playbook boils down to one very simple principle: The only way a rapist’s prey ever stops “asking for it” is not to exist at all.
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Jason Kemp, in reply to
That 2007 Commission of Inquiry was what I have been thinking about
Deputy Police Commissioner Rob Pope to resign from 2011
"The man who led some of New Zealand's biggest investigations is walking away from the police in the wake of a damning report into the force's culture."
...."Pope's announcement comes a day after a Pricewaterhouse Coopers released its third report following the 2007 Commission of Inquiry into police conduct.
The report revealed nepotism, discrimination against women and poor performance among senior staff as problems within the police force."
and a summary of the progress report found
Among the report's findings were:
No action over poor-performing senior staff at police headquarters.
Police files revealed "highly inappropriate behaviour" by staff which was worthy of dismissal but received only a warning.
Rosters based on staff needs, not risk and demand.
Many staff felt the wrong people were sometimes given senior roles.
Wide inconsistency in the abilities of area commanders.
Little confidence in the detection of any concerning staff behaviour.
The commission of inquiry lacked impact as a driver of change.
Police need to implement "basic management concepts".
I hope our faith in the IPCA is justified but given the history so far it would seem little has changed.
I wonder if there are any women in Senior roles with the Police as it must be a very tough culture
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Men writing to the Minister of Police to express outrage at the series of events and insisting on wide ranging actions bering taken now to restore faith in the police.
Leaving the officers involved in place will skew any IPCA inquiry.
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Brodie Davis, in reply to
Oh, but “the line” has to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time, because The Victim-Blaming Playbook boils down to one very simple principle: **The only way a rapist’s prey ever stops “asking for it” is not to exist at all.*
I agree completely, but there does seem to be a “dress/behavior code” that exists, where idiots feel able to go “its your fault, from what you were wearing you were asking for it”. Now it may be that some of those people think that just by merely existing is enough. But for others there is a line, ie tight white pants, or super short miniskirt etc. But if someone was in trackies then its different in their heads. Like that ALAC advertisement from a few years ago (discussed on this forum, by emma I think).
This is another example that makes me sick.
Trigger warning!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11152672Fagan asked her if it was consensual. “Did you not hear what I just said?” she replied. He replied: “Yes, but you said you fancied him."
(edited to remove excess url codes around herald link)
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Richard Aston, in reply to
But the actual rapists are still rapists. Just sayin’.
Yeah but rape is not a natural part of the human psyche, rapists are not just born like that, they created by our culture. And yes we can lock them up for while to protect our women but they will keep arriving as another young boy looking for power over to prop up his sense of self.
I am not saying forget about the rapists, yes we need to deal with that - and strongly - but I am saying lets at least explore the causes.
Just saying. -
Meanwhile, RadioLive’s parent company is fighting a battle on yet another front. Could #Roastbustergate be the beginning of the end?
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Trigger warning!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11152672No longer the Andrew Fagan I listened to as a youngster.
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
No longer the Andrew Fagan I listened to as a youngster.
Dunno about that. Some school friends and I went to a Mockers concert at Massey in 1988. There was a bunch of drunken students at the back who started singing loudly “Nah nah na na, nah nah na na, hey hey hey, take your clothes off”, over the top of the end of a song. Andrew Fagan said “I should warn you, I have an enormous penis.” I found that pretty gross.
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